Ann Maree  
Hey friends, welcome to the second episode of season five, where we’ve been talking to a couple who reconciled after domestic abuse in their marriage. In the first episode, I interviewed the wife, Renee. Today, as a follow up, I’ll interview our expert contributor, Tabitha Westbrook, a licensed therapist, trauma specialist, author and speaker, and that doesn’t even come close to how many credentials, we don’t have time to share, but she has, obviously, much experience working as a counselor, like with trauma, but also with perpetrators, as an interventionist, men who are accused, of course, of control and abuse in their intimate partner relationships. All that to say, we can’t say enough about Tabitha. We are excited she’s here first time, and welcome to the podcast.

Tabitha
Thank you for having me. Ann Maree, I’m really excited to be here.

Ann Maree
We are excited to have you to glean from your vast wisdom. Thank you. But if you don’t mind helping our audience get to know you a bit better, maybe you can share a little more about yourself or your work, or just anything else you’d like to add to this introduction.

Tabitha
Yeah, absolutely. So like you alluded to, there’s a lot of letters that happen behind my name. I am a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, Licensed Professional Counselor and Licensed Clinical Mental Health Counselor and supervisor for all of those licenses. So I supervise other counselors and interns as well. I have a private practice with offices in Texas and North Carolina, and we specialize in complex trauma, domestic abuse and coercive control in the church. So we help you know, folks that you know find faith as their center to be healed and whole. And we believe strongly in helping both the victims and the perpetrators, not at the same time, because that would not be safe, but in appropriate ways. I do help lead a men’s better intervention group that is faith based. Also help teach faith based domestic abuse advocacy. So I’m very passionate about advocacy as well. I’m a certified sex addiction therapist, which is probably going to come up at some point in this interview, because I have some strong feelings and opinions on abuse and sex addiction, and we’ll, you know, probably talk about some of that a bit. But, you know, my friends just call me alphabet soup so you don’t have to remember all of that. And if you want to, you can Google me and see all of it.

Ann Maree
That’s a good way to think of it. All these initials for the conferences we go to, for the, you know, suffixes to our name, to the ends of our names. It’s kind of fun, but, yeah, I don’t know half of them. I don’t know, I don’t know what half of them mean. So thank you for clarifying some. Okay, so let’s get going on what we’re here to talk about today, which is Charles and Renee and their reconciliation. And it is an unusual case, as you know that there is, has been reconciliation. So we want to kind of emphasize some of those things, and I know that you will be the most effective person to do that. How? Let’s start here. How often are you able to work with couples from abusive marriages who reconcile?

Tabitha
It is super rare. And I wish that weren’t the case. Honestly, I would, you know it. I think one of the things that is a misunderstanding for many people, you see those of us who do the work, is that, oh, you see abuse everywhere, and it actually we would prefer not to, frankly, like, it is always a drag when a couple comes in and I’m like, “Oh man,” you know, because I’d rather it not be there. I would just like a lovely, dysfunctional or difficult or disappointing marriage, as opposed to destructive ones like that would be much more fun. So I hope that people hear that this is not what we want to see, but we need to be capable of seeing it. So unfortunately, we don’t see a ton of healing and restoration and reconciliation. And I hate that. I think this statistic is between roughly two and 10% are healed and and that’s really because, you know, it, it takes a good deal of humility to say, “I am an abuser and I need to change it.” And I think that, you know, it’s hard for people sometimes to get there. A lot of the men that I work with do not love that label, and I understand that. I mean, I don’t know that I’d want to be called that either. However, we have to start from where we really are in order to heal and to grow, because if we don’t, then we’re just being dishonest with ourselves. But on the occasions I do see it, it is absolutely celebration worthy, and it is delightful, and it is truly, I would say, you know, for any of us that do this work, what we what we truly hope for, whether the marriage can or can’t be saved, isn’t necessarily my, you know, strongest desire, think, thought, whatever, but it is really more about is the individual moving toward Christ, and are they repentant, and are they submitting their life to the Lord? Because at the end of the day, that’s what really matters. You know, they’re not going to be in any relationship, the one they’re in any future relationships, any anything, unless they really are humble before the Lord and allowing him to change their heart. So it is absolutely celebration worthy when it happens.

Ann Maree
Yeah, yeah, and you’re talking about both of them, you’re not just talking about the victims. Yes, we are victim centric, yeah, in our approach, in many ways. But we also care very much, you know, for the kingdom of God and is and his people, and our brothers are included in that, or sisters, if that’s the applicable perpetrator, and you and you’re labeling, we’ve talked about this before many times on this podcast, but labeling accurately, it just it’s become much more prevalent to me lately with having my elderly parents living with us and getting them to the doctors that they need to go to and letting those doctors, you know, help them label accurately, which I keep telling both parents, “you know, you can’t get the care you need unless you give them the information they need and you and you label it correctly.” You know, if you go in there and you’re like, “I’m fine, I’m fine, I’m fine,” you’re not going to get what you need. And so that’s very important. Thank you for bringing it up again. When there is if you want to say it success, what would you attribute that to? Or is that even definable?

Tabitha
I mean, I think that, again, the path to get somewhere can be a lot of different things, but the what we typically see is humility and a willingness to own their stuff. You know, one of the things I tell the guys in in our battery intervention group frequently, is I have other things I could be doing. I don’t have to be there, you know, but I truly, genuinely care about their hearts and their souls and their lives and whether or not they walk abundantly in Jesus, you know, and when guys are able to and girls, right? But we, I work primarily with male perpetrators, you know, when they’re able to be humble and say, “maybe I’m wrong, maybe the way that I’ve been doing life and things isn’t, isn’t, isn’t what the Lord would desire,” you know, and they’re able to feel that brokenness of sin in their lives and feel healthy shame in their lives, then that is the catalyst for the Lord to do so much work, right? Like God doesn’t force us into anything, because he’s not an abuser, he’s not an oppressor. He gives us a choice. You know, the end of Romans, one is real clear on that, that, you know, you’re like, oh, you know, the people were like, Yeah, I’m not interested in God’s like, cool, go over and do what you want to do. And there’s so much destruction, you know, because God isn’t a he’s He doesn’t force us. But when we go, man, I see this, and it’s been revealed to me, what’s happening in my heart. It’s going to be painful to look at when you look at the destruction that you’ve caused, but it is the best place to be. And I always tell the guys, “be ready to sit in the suck.” You know, like that is when, when they’re just like, “I have done something terrible.” I have been terrible that it is a pathway to healing and goodness, which is so hard for them to see sometimes.

Ann Maree
Yeah, yes, you and I have a similar friend, colleague who says this, often, humility wins the day, and that is such a huge indicator, if you’re looking for what’s going to tell me whether or not this perpetrator is moving towards the Lord or away. It’s that humility factor, and it’s not just once, right? We know that, right, but So, okay, you brought up healthy shame. So I’m going to tackle that right now. We don’t hear much about healthy shame. We hear more about that toxic shame. And so we’ve talked about this once on the podcast, and I’d love to keep that discussion going. Can you just, you know, just verbally vomit on that one for a little while? Absolutely.

Tabitha
So I think that shame can get a bad rap, and rightly so in some ways, right. There are times that shame is really unhelpful, but there are times it’s very helpful and so healthy. Shame is being able to look at something and go, “Oh my goodness, the kind of person that I have been is not like Jesus, and I should be ashamed of that,” right? If I have been wicked, if I have been oppressive, if I have dominated my family and caused unspeakable harm in a million different ways, and I sit with the survivors, I hear the ways that they have been absolutely destroyed in their personhood, utterly denigrated, right, you know, and the Word of God weaponized against them, which is one of my least favorite things, and makes me very, very unhappy. Because that is not the heart of the Lord, you know. But when the guys are able to look at that and go, “Oh,” and feel ashamed of what they have done, that is a good place. Now, when we get into toxic shame, toxic shame is, I’m terrible. I can never be redeemed. It will always be this way, and that’s not what the Lord says, right? Lord says, “oh, no, I came to, you know, put to death, sin and shame.” You know, that was what the cross was. But if we don’t say, “My flesh is in this place,” you know, and allow that healthy shame to do work and bear weight, the weight of the gospel on us, then making, you know, moving forward is going to be really difficult. And a lot of times, you know, the dudes will exhibit what I would call, like, really a false shame. “I’m just so terrible.” It’s really self pity. Let’s be honest. You know, “I’m so terrible. I’m just going to go out in the garden and eat worms,” and I challenge that. And I’m like, you know, well, okay, but like, what’s terrible? And they’re like, “Well, I mean, you know, I’ve done all these things, and, yes, I’ve hurt some people,” you know, or whatever, and it’s like you’re not really owning it. There is a brokenness that we see when someone is like sitting with their sin and realizing its impact. Sin is not a light matter, you know, oppression is not a light matter. Harming your family is not a light matter. You should be crying, you should be sad. You should feel terrible as you reckon with that before the Lord and move toward healing and move toward repentance and move toward sanctification.

Ann Maree
Yeah, that’s good point too. Emphasizing sin is always primarily against God, and then, yeah, healthy shame is going to be when that light of his shines on you. It’s like Adam and Eve. Of course, that’s going to create that shame of what you’ve done. And I do so often hear unfortunately, like you’ve said, the perpetrator, the guys are, I forgot what the word is, but they’re, they’re just, “I’m going to eat some worms.” Is a good way to say it. You know, it’s more or less a feel sorry for me. “Look, look at me, how bad I am. Let’s move along.” You know, right, right?

Tabitha
They try to play the victim, yeah, and that’s not, that’s not helpful, because they’re not the victim, they’re the perpetrator. And again, owning that piece, right? No one wants to say, like, I have not met anybody who’s like, “I really would love to say this about myself. It sounds like fun.” You know, no one wants to say they’re a perpetrator. But if we do not, when we have been, where are we going to go? Because we’re not even being honest, right? Like the Lord says, “Bring me your heart,” right? I just think of the psalmist like when David was saying, “search me and know me and show me if there’s any wicked way in me and lead me in the way everlasting.” So he doesn’t say, “search me and know me, show me these wicked ways.” And then, like, “let’s go.” Have, you know, a brewski or whatever. You know, he’s like, no, “lead me in the way everlasting.” And if you really think about what that looks like, that is not an easy path first of all, right? Like to be led in the way everlasting once you’ve been shown in places that the Lord needs to clean out, like, that’s going to be painful. It’s surgical, right? Like we are, you know, we talk about that refining fire. I don’t know if anybody’s ever really thought about what it looks like to be in a refining fire, but it is not comfortable, right? Like, if you like, go and watch a metalsmith work, you know, like, that’s really hot. And I cannot imagine, like, the like, you know what I mean? Like, we actually, like, got into that. Like, if so, if we are thinking about it as, like, Oh, “I’m gonna, like, turn this page. It’s gonna be super easy.” Now, these are things that are ingrained in our bodies, ingrained in our minds. There may be some trauma that has to be worked through to help us shift, although trauma is not a cause for abuse, I know lots of traumatized people that don’t abuse anyone, but I’m not saying it doesn’t influence and doesn’t impact. And so there is painful work to be done, the work of healing is no joke, and it is not easy, but it is so good and so worth it.

Ann Maree
Yeah, I don’t know anybody that likes to name their sin or move on into the fire with it, yeah, yeah. So what are some of the perceptions of an abusive heart? Let’s get into the heart issues.

Tabitha
So an abusive heart looks at the world through the lens of pride and entitlement. I think if we can distill it down to just something that simple, but not easy, and yet still very nuanced, right? Like, I think as people, we generally want to categorize things anyway, and humans are messy, we are not very categorical in a lot of ways. So just when you think you have something understood, a human person will do something, you’re like, “well, didn’t see that coming.” Okay, you know. And our capacity for wickedness can be pretty high. So, you know, I think that you know, looking at like, how do you see the world? Well, if I see the world through everything is mine. And. And this person/people are are like my objects, my servants. You’re seeing the world incorrectly, because it’s not how God sees the world. It’s not how God sees other people. And so that is probably like, the core issues that I see when I am working in this space is I own them. I will get my way at all costs, and I want my world to be perfect. I And in a lot of instances, some of the things I have heard some of these men say straight up, basically, if we distill it down as “I want to be God and I will be on the throne” and that is exactly what Satan said, and it did not go well for him. So, you know, it’s that kind of heart of I will be in control of everything and everyone you know, especially my family, and that is a scary, scary set of beliefs.

Ann Maree
Yes, and how do we change them?

Tabitha
Oh, Jesus. Jesus, in humility, honestly, you know, I think that when, again, when somebody is able to say, “oh my gosh,” and sit with that brokenness and sit with that sin, and then start going, maybe there are things that I don’t know or things that I believe that I need to shift and change, you know that, like I have been harmful. You know, why do I think that my wife should be my servant? Right? Like submission and subjugation are not the same word, and, you know, and it’s also supposed to be mutual submission. So if we take that section of Ephesians and back ourselves right on up like God says, “Submit yourselves, one to another” in, you know, any and, and I love my, one of my favorite things to remind people of is that when God created man and woman, and we are in Genesis, and he says, “Go and subdue the earth and have dominion over it.” He never once says, Have dominion over each other. He never says, “subdue each other,” right? He they’re supposed to work together. Men and women are supposed to work together and be a team. And you know, even if you take a complimentary stance to that in different roles. Again, it’s not subjugation. You know, if you look at what the Lord says that marriage should look like, it’s not subjugation. So if you know the abuser is willing to look at that and go, is there a way that I have interpreted this A) for my gain, to get what I want and be real about that, and B) in such a way that it’s harmful and not at all like Jesus, then we got some good stuff to do there, right? And retooling going like, maybe I can slow this interaction down with my spouse and do it differently. You know? Maybe I can notice, learn to notice, the look on her face when I come in the room angry and wonder what it must be like for her. And this is another thing, is being able to take empathy with the with the abused party, right? Like, what is it like to be in her shoes? What is it like to see you come in the room in a rage over something she had nothing to do with and you take it out on her, what is it like for her to try to say, I would rather have chicken than steak for dinner? And you lose your mind, you know, because you really wanted steak. Like, why is chicken a problem? First of all, could we start there, you know, like, and really, just like, looking at it and going, why is any disagreement a problem for me? In a lot of the guys know what they tell me, well, she’s attacking me. And I’m like, that’s not a that. Nope, I’ve seen attacks. That’s that’s not it, you know? And, and I think that’s such an interesting thing, and that is how it is perceived. Can’t tell you how many times I’ve been in group, and I will point something out to one of the guys in there and just say, “Hey, you might want to be curious about this.” Or, “Hey, I’m noticing you using these words. Can you tell me what you mean by them,” you know? Or you told me that you were angry. Can you tell me what you said? And the ones who are pastors who used profanity do not like to actually tell me what they said. But I’m like, I need to hear it. I want to actually know. You need to actually say what you said, you know. And like, when we start kind of going in that direction, you will be surprised at how many guys are like, “Well, I mean, you just were attacking me and just letting me have it.” And I’m like, I do not think I was, because I’m not mad at all, and I want your good and I’m just asking questions about, like, tell me more about this. And so like, any criticism, any feedback, any complaint, is seen as an attack, and that when they are, start noticing that, like, oh, well, you mean not everybody’s out to get me. Well, no, they’re not. Then, you know, especially not your wife, you know, those are questions that then we can start kind of going, Okay, what makes it feel that way to you? And why are you seeing it that way and like we’re getting to root cause. One of the things that I did for a million years was an auditor, and one of my favorite things to do was look at root cause analysis, because everybody. When you would find something be like, well, it’s a lack of training. And I would be like, it is not actually a lack of training. I looked at those records. Everyone is trained. Your procedure is not very good. That’s probably the problem, right? And so when we look at what is the real why? Well, she sounded mean, and that gave you the right to lock her in a bedroom or stop her exit, or take over all control of the finances. And, you know, I’ve had clients, you know, survivor clients tell me, well, he would want to take a nap and lock the children and I outside the house. We were not allowed to leave the property. And it didn’t matter if it was winter, if the weather was inclement, but if he wanted a nap, that’s what he would do. And, you know, and this was a person with, like, several small children, and so they would make the best of it. But, like, there was no, you know, when, when I asked, you know, the the husband, like, why would you do that? Well, I mean, like, they were loud. I mean, that’s interesting. Tell me why that bothered you. Tell me more, you know. And so, like, we can get through that man go, “oh, I might need to see this differently,” then we can go forward.

Ann Maree
I hope that that attack is actually it is an attack. It’s an attack on their false world, their false position in that world, like you said, on the throne, God’s throne. So in a sense, they are right when they say it’s an attack. But that’s not such a bad thing, right? And also not in proper response to what’s happening to the victim. I’m just going to go backwards because I have a soapbox on this one, which is the mutualization and Ephesians. And just having done some work in the in the original language, and what those participles in versus, I think it’s from 4:17 on, relate to, and they relate to the main verb, which is not submit. But also we lose the meaning of all of those directives in Ephesians, 5 up till 21 and what they mean to how we walk in the Christian life, which, yes, is for both believers, both genders, both of us. Yeah, so there is a mutualization there. Let’s see. I wrote down one more thing and I’m losing it. Oh, if he is immovable in his perspective, what kind of data is that for you as the caregiver?

Tabitha
Well, it’s, it’s good information. Honestly, if he is immovable, then that tells me the position of his heart, right? Jesus says that we’re going to be known by our fruit. And if we, you know, a lot of people talk about, you know, the end of Galatians 5, where it’s like, you know, love, joy, peace, patience, all that stuff. But if we back up a couple of verses, we have all the fruits of the flesh. And, you know, we can see it evidenced in that. And then I have questions. I have asked men, do you even know the Lord? Like we might need to start there. You’re saying all kinds of stuff, and you can go to all kinds of Scripture, but I see absolutely zero fruit, and I see absolutely zero, you know, evidence of you looking like Jesus. And I would be remiss. I would be so unkind and unloving if I didn’t ask what you actually believe. You know, because if, if you don’t believe in Jesus, we gotta start there. Honestly, if you’re if you really aren’t regenerated, then what are you working with, anyhow? And so that is sometimes a question that we would ask, you know, and if there’s a hardness of heart, I want to know why? Why? What is benefiting you to stay in this position, you know? What makes this makes sense. And so, you know, I’m going to try to explore that a little bit. But again, if they don’t want to explore it, I can’t make somebody, I’m not going to like duct tape them to the wall and say, let’s explore your resistance, you know, and your desire not to change, and what you’re getting out of it. I’m, I’m going to plant seeds. I’m, I hope the Lord waters them, but at the end of the day, the individual gets to make the choice and whether or not they really want to explore that.

Ann Maree
Yeah, that’s good. Thank you. I was thinking about Renee’s example of Charles washing her feet. I think you and I talked about that before. I mean, it happened. It happens often. It’s not just an occurrence that happens in a marriage that’s going to reconcile. It’s also a tactic, if you will. But anyway, let me play that section of what I interviewed her, and then I’d like to interact on that. So let me play it, and I’ll ask you a question.

Renee recording
I remember one night when we were in our separate rooms, I sent him a text telling him that the Lord forgives even our most terrible sin. I felt like he was remorseful, and somehow, even in the midst of all my anger, I still wanted him to know that God would forgive him, and God was at work in my heart as well. In the past, I had heard so many apologies from him. Somehow, this seemed different. He acted differently. He showed kindness. When he came home from his weekend retreat, I felt like God had really done a work in his heart. He wanted to wash my feet. He asked for forgiveness for all that he had done to hurt me. But it was more than some words at the end of a weekend or washing my feet, he was different. He was kind. He listened.

Ann Maree
So you and I have had this discussion before because of our friend Chris Moles, and how often he talks about it. But the opposite of abusive is not not abusive, rather, in the Lord’s economy, the opposite of an abuser is being a servant like when is a thief, not a thief, not when he stops stealing, but when he has gainful employment, or is generous and kind in his giving. And so Renee uses this word often, Charles ‘different’ she described with the washing of her feet incidents. How do we know the difference between that and just simple behavior change or an act tactic which is not long term necessarily. How do we know the difference?

Tabitha
So countenance and longevity would be my two thoughts on that. So one of the things that she said is, “he was different,” right? “I’d had apologies before, but this wasn’t the same,” right? So with something categorically different happening, if we you know, when we listen to her story, we also see that it was over long periods of time, in other difficult circumstances too. You know, there are plenty of men that I know that have gone to a conference, a retreat, they come home, they say the ‘right words’. And I would air quote that, if this wasn’t audio, so please note the air quoting of the right words, and then they like do a thing right, something that feels certainty, like washing of feet. But their overall demeanor isn’t changed. There’s an underlying current about them when they haven’t changed. There are those sorts of things. But what Renee is describing here is a humility. There was a servant stature in the heart, not just in the activity, and that’s really it. Like the Lord says in the Psalms, “I do not desire your sacrifices, I desire your heart.” So the ‘doing thing’ is great, and it’s how we have evidence of our faith like James says that, but it’s really because it’s coming from the posture of the heart. So what was different about him is he owned his stuff, right? He asked for forgiveness for the ways he hurt her, not for the ways she perceived him. And that’s one of the apologies I hear a lot from men who are not repentant, is, “I’m really sorry you felt that way.” That is not an apology. You know, “I hurt you. I deeply wounded you. I have destroyed you for the last 25 years. I can’t believe I did that. You are precious in the Lord’s sight.” I’m looking for something more like that, you know, like with actual humility attached to it, and consistency and shift. And so, you know, that is what she’s describing there. So that’s what makes the act of washing feet in this scenario different than a man who goes to check a box, right? And then she goes on in this to say “we had many more conversations about the ways he had hurt me.” He said, “I won’t get mad no matter what question you ask,” right? And she talks about his pornography use in here, and this is where I’m going to kind of jump into my CSAT, thoughts, feelings and emotions. One of the things that I had been told quite a bit was, well, they’re just an addict. They’re just a sex addict, and all of these behaviors that this person is experiencing is just due to the addiction. And I was like, That is not true, because addiction does not make you abusive. I have seen lots of addicted people. Addiction itself is abusive. There is an abusive element, because you are lying, you are hiding, you are oftentimes diverting funds. There’s a lot that goes into that. You are absolutely betraying your partner. 100%. Pornography is adultery. I can absolutely go into that, and if you’d like me to exegete it, I totally can. But lust, you know, is equivalent. And Jesus talks about that so you know. And he also says, you know, if there’s anything that’s causing you to do that gouge out your eyeballs, and we do not see a lot of one eyed or no eyed individuals out there, so clearly, that’s not happening. But you know, there is a difference between a man who is struggling with sex addiction, and is acting abusively from the addiction, but is not an abuser where they’re not like it’s not powering control over everything in the relationship, over the other person. They are typically very broken about what they are doing to their spouses. They don’t want to keep doing it. They don’t quite know how to stop doing it sometimes. It is very often sitting on top of trauma, and please don’t hear me saying that. You know, that’s an excuse. It is not right. We still it’s still awful, and it’s still betrayal, and you still have to, like, make amends to your spouse, and like, change your ways and repent. And you cannot continue walking in that addiction, right? And you may do so much damage to the relationship that it cannot survive. So, you know, I want to be very clear, I don’t take it lightly, but it looks different if they’re not a full abuser, right? When they are a full abuser, that is a piece of the abuse and it is extending into all the areas. And I understand that, you know, there, there are some survivors who have a hard time with the delineation that I make, but having worked in the field, I see that a little bit. But I also really wanted to be able to say to pastors that I work with, like, it’s not the addiction that’s causing the problem, it’s the heart and the overall perspective in the pride and the entitlement and you know, so I went and got certified, so some more street cred, if you will, in that conversation, say, no, actually know a few things about that. And so, you know, I his openness to saying,” Ask me anything about the pornography is, ask me anything, hold me accountable,” although I do not believe that wives should be accountability partners, but that’s a whole other podcast. And you know, maybe we’ll do that sometime, but you know, in in her position, what he’s saying is, “I’m willing to be transparent with you. I am willing to lay down hiddenness, and, you know, covertness, in favor of you being able to trust me and me being humble before you as my wife,” and that is a mark of a change, right? There’s nothing hidden, there’s nothing that’s off the table, nothing that she can’t ask. And one of the things I tell folks often is when they’re, especially if they’re dating one of my younger clients, and they’re like, “how do I know if he’s an abuser?” I’m like, “well, disagree with him on anything and see how that happens.” It goes poorly, then you need to run, because those red flags do not mean it’s a carnival. So, you know, that is one of my Hallmark things. I mean, there’s more to it, obviously, but that is definitely one. And so him not getting angry, him truly and again over time, right? Not just that weekend. If we listen to Renee’s story, it is over an extended period of time, and she talks about it’s been 11 years since that confrontation, right? So we have time. And I always tell guys who are like, but “like, I mean, like, it’s taking so long”, and I’m like, Well, I mean, like, you didn’t like, this didn’t happen overnight. We have to disentangle a lot. It takes a long time to rebuild trust. And really, what is three to five to 10 years in a 50 year marriage, I get to drop in a bucket. You know, is this person willing to go to the mat for like? I mean, do you love them enough to be like, even if it takes 100 years, even if it takes, you know, the rest of our marriage, even if our marriage can’t survive, I will honor this person and be humble before them and like that is where we’re like, yeah, there’s, there’s some good things happening there.

Ann Maree
Love to hear how you’re putting all this. I’m going to back you up though. We love our audience here at Help[H]er, and we always want to encourage that we trust our audience and that they have the Holy Spirit, and we want them to make their own decisions about what they think and what they believe. We just want to present them with the thoughts. So I’m going to push back to pornography is adultery. Give me that one.

Tabitha
All right, well, so, you know, a lot of times I’ve heard and I struggle to understand what Bible people are reading on occasion. And this is one of those moments where it’s, you know, well, pornography doesn’t hurt anyone, and it’s not like physical touch. It’s certainly not adultery. Adultery is like going out and having an extramarital affair. And I’m like, that’s really interesting, because Jesus said, If you look on another woman with lust, then you have committed adultery. So I don’t understand how it gets any more clear than that. Additionally, if we look at what lust is, it is consumptive, you are consuming another human being for your pleasure. And that is not okay. First of all, pornography does hurt people. There’s a lot of human trafficking. It is absolutely denigrating to women. If you look at the stats around pornography, if anybody wants them, I’m happy to give them because I have them all that you know, in almost every pornographic video movie situation sitting, scenario, the woman is being dominated. She is, you know, often it’s often like the no is really a yes and all of these things. And so it is not honoring your sexual partner as an image bearer of God in those videos first of all. It is a distortion of the way that God intended sex to be, and God intended sex to be awesome and wonderful, or it would not feel pleasurable, right? Like he could have made, we could have done procreation any number of ways in because the Lord is infinitely creative. I was saying the other day, like, he’s so creative, like he made fish that live in the deep ocean that have a headlight, you know, like, that’s a creative God, right? He thought that weird fish up and, you know, so, like, he could have done any number of things, but he chose this. And he chose it for connection, because we were created for community. He chose it to give us pleasure, and he chose us to be able to have deep intimacy that speaks on some level to the way he sees us and the intimacy of the Trinity, which is wild and when that gets distorted, you know that is a mess for so many people, and when we are using pornography, we are retraining our brain in ways that take us far away from God’s plan for sex. We are looking on another human being for consumptive purposes. That is what lust is. And when we’re doing that, we are stepping out on our spouse. And that can be pornographic videos. It can be erotic fiction, right? Like, those aren’t any better. And so, you know, so that is incredibly unhealthy. It is not every man’s battle. It is sin that needs to be put to death on the cross, and that Jesus died for, it is not a light matter, and the way that it makes your partner feel is terrible, devastating. I’ve heard so many women say to me, “I can’t do that, or they made me reenact this, and it is demeaning,” and I’m not I’m going to spare your audience details, because I’ve got a lot of them, but I’ve heard so many things, and just the wickedness of what spouses are requested to do because of the influence of pornography is awful. So it is not a light matter, whether it’s an addiction, whether it’s doing something for a lot of times people use it for comfort because of the dopamine hit from an orgasm. It’s like 420% it’s real high. It’s higher than heroin. Is the dopamine hit for an orgasm. And so I understand that doesn’t make it not hurtful, not painful and not wicked.

Ann Maree
I often rail against the plain reading of the Word, and you just brought one up. That’s like, whoa, yes. That’s when we’re supposed to be reading Scripture plainly. When it says it plainly. I mean, honestly, I love that you continued, but you didn’t have to say anything else. It’s just it’s that clear, yes. And so I remember, this is a kind of a rabbit trail, but I remember being in seminary, and my counseling professor was talking about how he was a pastor as well. He was interacting so much more with women who were finding out that their husbands were using pornography and how incredibly devastated they were, and he just didn’t feel like that was the right response, like the two didn’t match, and we were the women in the class were trying to convey, you know, how you just did it perfectly. I wish you would have been in my class. So. So thank you. Thank you for going ahead and elaborating on that one kind of off scrip. On a kind of similar note, how often do you find perpetrators have abuse in their history, and what do you do with that? Or do you do anything with it at all?

Tabitha
It happens frequently, right? Like, I think that traumatic experiences in this day and age, honestly, none of us gets out unscathed. Which is also consistent with what the Bible says, that things are hard and we’re going to have lots of scars and trials, right? It says, “Don’t be surprised by these fiery trials,” right? Like, as if we and we always are, but like, we’re not supposed to be, right? We’re supposed to be like, yes, that tracks, but it’s not fun when it happens. And I will say that, yes, there is often abuse in the history for someone who becomes an abuser again, though it’s not a one to one, right? So it’s not an if, then I would say it is correlative, but not causative necessarily, right? So, yes, it happens frequently, in tandem, but it is not causative to them becoming an abuse perpetrator. Because I know tons of people you have abuse in their family of origin history, where they you know, maybe mom was, you know, Dad was abusing mom. Maybe mom or dad were abusing the kids, or both, or what have you, and they don’t grow up to become abusers, right? And so, again, it’s not causative, but it is definitely correlative. And so I will say that you do want to address it. It depends on the context, right? So when we are working with a perpetrator of abuse, the first thing is safety. Safety of the individuals who cannot do not yet have a voice, right? And so I’m always thinking about the person not in the room with me, and what are my actions and the things that I work through with the perpetrating individual? How is that going to affect the people at home? And I’m very careful, like, I do not ever want to compromise victim safety. You know, in that space, I’m going to call accountability first, right? You have to know what you’re doing, and we have to sort of do that. And it’s like anything like anything like you got to cut the head off the snake before you can deal with the body, sometimes. And so we are going to deal with that. And if I am doing one on one counseling, not in a group, in a group, it’s accountability, like, you know what you’re doing. You to understand the dynamics of abuse, we need to look at your behaviors like it’s very different. If I’m doing one on one counseling, I will do the trauma work with them, but again, with the ‘and you also can’t be abusive’, right? Like we are going to deal with the behaviors and the trauma that sits underneath of it, for sure, but, but again, it’s accountability first and then clinical change, for lack of a better way to put it. I mean, there’s probably a better way to put it, but like a secondary but yes, we are going to work on that. We’ve had lots of conversation with another clinician who’s written some books on this particular perspective, and he would be in lockstep agreement with me that, yes, you absolutely want to do the trauma work, but you got to do the accountability piece first. 

Ann Maree
And for our audience, we’ll get those names of those author’s books that Tabitha is bringing up right now, and get them in our show notes. Thank you. Yeah, interesting balance. So you’re doing a lot of counseling and advocacy, and this is off script too. How do you how do you help the individual you’re helping understand which hat you have on, or do you? 

Tabitha
Well, I mean, it depends on which seat I’m sitting in at any given moment, right? Like I would say that as a whole, I would be victim centric, you know, and working with perpetrators as part of that, and also like they’re victims of themselves. The perpetrators are right. They do not realize that they are not living in God’s abundance. I’m gonna say it this way. They are standing in a pile of poo. It’s the poo that they know so it’s comfortable, it’s warm. They understand the smell, but what they do not realize is that God is inviting them to an incredible banquet that is so much more than they could ever consider. And so I like to invite them out of their own space, abusing themselves in that place, and not having the goodness of God flowing over and through them and invite them to that banquet. And so in some ways, it’s all victim work, although I will, I just want to be careful when I say, like, victim and perpetrator in the same sentence, because, like, they’re a victim of their own stuff, not a victim of someone else. And I just want to be super clear of that, because a lot of times they will do the DARVO thing, which is, defend, attack, reverse victim and offender. We’re not doing that, you know, but there’s something so much better for them. So I truly have a heart to see that shift and so when I’m working with a survivor like I want her to be a strong woman in the Lord. I want her to use her voice. I want her to have the abundant life that God has called and given her right like I am, absolutely anti oppression in that way. And you know, when I’m working with a perpetrator, I want to call them to something better than they could ever imagine. You know, they are often looking for love and connection, and they are not getting it because of their behavior, right? Like, if they get anything, it’s a false connection, and they’re missing out on true intimacy. And I want to invite them into that beautiful place that the Lord has for them in a different way, and hopefully they will accept that invitation at some point. So that’s kind of how it all balances out in my world.

Ann Maree
But sweet. I mean, just what a rich demonstration of your heart, your compassion, your empathy, and of the invitation of the Gospel. I can’t see why you don’t have more success, if you will, that, and I’m putting air quotes on it, success of seeing men move towards God, because how could you resist, right, right?

Tabitha
I mean, that’s how I feel. I know they apparently sometimes feel differently, super sad to me. But I think that’s why. Like when we’re doing, you know, I lead, I co facilitate with a male pastor. I love the male female model for perpetrator work because I do think it shows healthy relationship. It shows healthy male feel, male female friendships, which is something that a lot of these men do not understand. Sometimes I think the Church, the big C Church as a whole, may not understand. And so, you know, it gives them that it get like we sometimes my co facilitator and I don’t agree. And so they’re learning to see disagreement without violence, whether it’s verbal violence, physical violence, any violence at all, where my co facilitator and I are not attacking each other. So what we are hoping to do, besides giving them information and calling them to repentance, is that they will see our relationship and go, “Oh my gosh. Like, that’s not something I’ve ever seen before, and I’m intrigued by that,” and it’s because my co facilitator and I are brother and sister in Christ, you know, and we honor each other as image bearers of a living God. And so I hope that it presents a sweet picture that breaks through the pride and the entitlement and all and the things that are holding them in this stuck place of being, you know, a perpetrator and being wicked.

Ann Maree
And on that note, too. I just I had thought I wanted to talk about this. Thank you for bringing it up at Help[H]er, we really strongly encourage Christian organizations to implement team approach to these dynamics. Thank you for highlighting that both for the care for the victims and the perpetrators, and this becomes even the more imperative when we’re talking about addressing perpetrators contextual influences, a little bit of what we’ve talked about before with pornography and childhood abuses or such, but they, as you know, shape those wrong perceptions. So when we’re working with churches, we like to encourage the pastors and the leaders to stay in their lane. You know, we’ll stay in our lanes. Anyway, Brad Hambrick has all of this written in his books, the Mobilizing Counseling in the Church series (Church-Based Counseling series), but a pastor and a church lay counselor can certainly address motivating heart issues of an abuser. Similarly that you’re describing as a counselor can but we need you. We need your specialization, your training, your experience, you know, as lay counselors, pastors, etc, especially when we’re talking about these mental health disorders. So let us in a little bit on the side of that, side of that journey, give us some insight into what you as licensed counselors do, and I want to say particularly when it comes to diagnosis, because that’s where we find most of confusion in the church is, how do I know it’s he said, she said, so tell me what the professional knows, or the experience, or even what training, whatever, to get to that diagnosis especially,

Tabitha
Yeah, so I’m going to back up just second and talk about the beauty of teams. Like, I see things, you see things, you were going to see them, you know, in different places, right? So if we have an Advocate working with a survivor, and then a counselor working with a survivor, and we have a accountability structure, working with perpetrators that might be pastor and some other people, the perpetrators, counselor, if there is one right, like all of those people talking is beautiful. It is so helpful, because we can sit down and go, you know, “he is saying one thing, and I’m seeing this in group. What are you seeing?” At home or in interactions with the kids at drop offs, right? If there’s no contact, you know, or some things like that, and we’re going to get a much more complete story, and it is vitally important. And I wish that more therapists were trained in this way to take that systemic perspective, because of my marriage and family license, I am a systemic therapist. That’s kind of a hallmark, because you’re looking at the family system and the community system and I think God says we live in a system. So for me, that makes a lot of sense. I didn’t know I was a marriage and family therapist. I went and got a degree in professional counseling, and then my internship was with a marriage and family therapist, and she’s like, did you know all of your electives, or marriage and family electives, and you’re actually systemic? And I was like, had no idea, and then found out I really liked working with couples. So there you go. That’s how I ended up with all of the licenses. And so like, when we’re looking at it from that systemic perspective, we are seeing, like, what’s really happening? Right? We if, if we’re siloed, we don’t know, or if we’re trying to do it all, we’re trying to do too much, and pastors already have a lot on their plate, right? Like abuse cases are not easy cases. They are not short term. When we, when I do, you know church training or a therapist. Training. Anyone who will let me talk to them about the dynamics of abuse, I will have conversations when we do those trainings, though, this is not a short term thing, because it didn’t start short term. You know, there’s a lot woven in. There’s a lot of nuances. You have to really be mindful. And it’s just slow go. It just is. And pastors have a lot of other things, right? So like, let’s say we have, you know, Bill and Cheryl making up names, um, you know, like that there that he’s working with him. It’s an abusive relationship. You know, he’s also got maybe 100 other people in his church, right? The average church is what 75 people in America give or take. So he’s got 74 let’s see, 75 I don’t math. I’m a therapist. He has 73 other people that he’s got to take care of, and, like, that’s a lot, right? 

Ann Maree
Oh, and write a sermon, right?

Tabitha
And Bill and Cheryl might take up a lot of time, right? And then if we’ve got hospital visits and some births and, oh, my goodness gracious, yep, right? So there’s already a lot going on, and so having a team takes all of the weight off of one person and distributes it evenly. If we think about like how foundations are built, like in a house, you don’t just have, like, usually a single column, those are houses that eventually fall over. It’s a bad thing if you have it at different corners or across different things, depending on the span. If you’ve ever built a deck, you definitely need more than one poll and post, you know, like you have these supports along the way. And so the weight of the object on top of it is distributed amongst others. And so if you bring in the right people and create a team, then you are distributing the weight amongst people who know what they’re doing, hopefully, and and that then talk to each other and you get this more complete picture, right? So then we’re hearing what the victim or survivor is saying, and we’re seeing what the perpetrator is or is not doing, depending on what’s happening. And so you can speak into that. You can say, “hey, you know, this doesn’t seem like you know you’re saying that you’re doing these things, but you know, that’s not maybe the case.” And again, how you there’s so much nuance and, like, how you bring information together and all of that stuff you want to be super careful. Again, safety first. But like, it just gives you so much more visibility on what’s really happening. And I have seen, you know, this is another thing that I’ve heard over and over and over that pastors say, and it just it makes me want to pop a blood vessel in the brain. Essentially, is, “well, she is just a weak willed woman or simple minded woman, laden with fear.” And the question that I want to ask is, “why is she afraid?” Mm, hmm. Cuz fear is a God given gift. And while the Scripture does tell us Do not be afraid, it’s in certain contexts. God doesn’t say if there’s a bear in your house, don’t be afraid. That is not what Scripture says at all. In fact, there’s a bear in my house, ought to be real scared, because fear is going to tell me something. It’s going to tell me to either run away, fight or play dead, you know, or make the bear steak. That’s the fawn response, you know, so that I don’t get eaten. So if you have somebody who is terrified, asking some questions is real important, you know, why are you scared? What is scary? You know, because maybe she’s not simple minded or weak willed. Maybe she’s afraid because she’s living with a bear. And that’s where the team approach can be really helpful, because a lot of times, abusers are very, very well spoken. They come across as very put together. They come across as affable. I mean, I say often I would go out and hang out with any of the guys that I have worked with. I would marry absolutely zero of them. And so, you know, they’re genuinely affable individuals for the most part, and that can be something that trips people up. Well, they seem so nice, you know, they are generous to other people, but it’s like, what’s happening in the walls of their home is none of that. And so that’s really where you have to have that team approach to push in. And it’s so important and so helpful. 

Ann Maree
Yeah, yes, yes, yes, and yes, Amen and Amen. Okay, talk to me now about the diagnosis. Yeah, you’ve touched on it, and I want to hear your licensed professional version of it.

Tabitha
So diagnosis is a big old It depends, which is one of the favorite therapist responses to literally everything, because it does depend. I am a fan when they are helpful. I am not a fan when they are not so when they are helpful is to describe something that might be happening or to get help for something, right? So if you want to get counseling and use your insurance, it has to be medically necessary. And there are certain diagnoses that would say this meets medical necessity. Post Traumatic Stress Disorder is one of them. And so if there is an accurate diagnosis that can be, you know, made, then that can help get things covered by insurance and that sort of thing. I also think there’s a lot of diagnoses. And so if you ever look at the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, version five, which is our current version. It is like large, like phone book large, right? I often say, if you look at it through the lens of trauma, it’d be a pamphlet, because really, we could kind of distill down some things to trauma responses in a lot of ways. Where I think it gets tricky is when we attribute someone’s abusive behaviors to a diagnosis. So even if they are let’s say they’ve been diagnosed, the perpetrator has been diagnosed, with major depressive disorder or generalized anxiety disorder or post traumatic stress disorder. None of those make you abusive, right? Right. So again, there may be correlation, but not causation. And so I think that’s an important thing to remember. The other thing, and I have another soapbox here. Who knew I had so many, is the narcissistic personality disorder. If you want to see me get very, very angry, like, call it narcissistic abuse, because first of all, that really messes people up in court, because then you’re levying diagnoses and you’re not a mental health professional. So if a you know victim comes in and says, “Well, he’s a narcissistic abuser, he’s narcissistic,” and we do not have a corresponding diagnosis, then they are going to immediately discount her. And it’s already hard in court for a victim, because if you allege abuse, then oftentimes they see it as your attempt to alienate children from the perpetrator, versus trying to keep your children safe. So it’s a whole thing. Secondly, not all narcissists are abusers, and not all abusers are narcissists, and that messes people up, because they’re like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, you were just talking about pride. And I’m like, Yes, but that’s not narcissism, right? I have worked with narcissist narcissists. One of my favorite things that I heard long ago, there’s actually a study on it, is, how do you know if someone’s a narcissist? You just ask them diagnose, because they’ll be like, Yes, I am about me. It is amazing. I am amazing. Why do you not think I’m amazing? But when they are not abusive, they’re just annoying, right? They’re just for themselves. They’re not controlling the other person. Would they like the world to revolve around them? Yes, absolutely. But are they going to control the finances? Are they going to say you can’t go out with friends? Are they going to isolate you? No, that’s not, you know, they’re not abusers, right? So what I want to be married to a narcissist? Absolutely not. Would not like to be married to someone with narcissistic personality disorder, but also they might not abuse me. And so I think that’s where we really want to be careful with diagnoses, right? And also, this is one that gets levied against survivors all of the time, and is so frustrating, it is borderline personality disorder, and a victim will get diagnosed with that because of the like, push, pull, the emotional dysregulation, some of those things that we see in trauma. And so that she’ll get diagnosed with borderline and she’s not, and when we do like trauma healing work, suddenly that diagnosis would not apply anymore, because she was dysregulated, because she was experiencing trauma, and she’s literally swimming in a toxic pool in her home. And when we get out of the toxic pool, dry off and do some work, then we have a wholly different outcome. And so, you know, diagnosis again can be helpful or hurtful, because if you go into court and say, well, she’s borderline, you know, and a judge goes, yeah, she’s really dysregulated, and she seems a little disheveled, and she’s having trouble keeping her story straight, oh, because it lives in her amygdala, and it has no time and space, and it just fires off when it fires off, like trauma responses… that… right then the judge goes, Oh, she’s not reliable, right? Or a pastor goes, she’s not reliable, instead of saying, I wonder what’s making it hard to tell the story. And so, you know, and kind of looking at it in a different way. And one of the things I do with clients sometimes is use post it notes as we’re trying to do a timeline, I’m trying to understand, maybe a trauma history. And we use super sticky post it notes, by the way, because they stick to painted walls better. There’s your fast tip of the day, but it’s absolutely not related to any of this, but one you should know. And we’ll just put them up on the walls in a line, and we can move them around. Then she’s like, actually, you know what? You know Billy was 10 at the time, so that would have had to have been like 1983 so, like, we need to move that one over, and so then we can kind of get a really good trauma timeline in a way that works with the way her brain is working, because it’s been scrambled by trauma. And I think that’s where pastors don’t necessarily have the skills or the time to do that, you know, and that’s where people like me can be super, super helpful, or a really great biblical counselor, right? You know, somebody who’s willing to like is trauma informed and understands that.

Ann Maree
Yeah, so we kind of circled back to the beginning, when we were talking about accurate labels, when we started talking about diagnoses, and that was good. Just going back to wonderful information you gave us on teams, and just want to say definitively, I think both of us could say this easily that a domestic abuse in particular depletes support systems, period. Yes, there’s no if ands or buts about it’s just, it’s a fact. It’s going to deplete your support system. So if your support system is you the pastor, be aware. Um, right, but also what you’re describing, and you’re not using this word, is curiosity, you know, and I’ve said this on a recent podcast. Uh, no, it wasn’t podcast. It was Peaceworks, Protect the Flock. When, for instance, when a pastor thinks that the woman just wants to get out of a bad marriage, and I want to say, what’s making it bad, right? Yes, she wants out, that is a problem. Why? And so that’s that curiosity factor that we want to just challenge, challenge, challenge that the church hear that as well, because that’s your that’s your, I think one of the hallmarks of expertise in a licensed counselor is your curiosity.

Tabitha
Absolutely, nyeah. And I’ll also say, like, you know, if a woman has gotten to the point where she wants to get out, you need to ask how that happened, because I have yet to meet. And I’m not saying they don’t exist, but I am saying I’ve done this work now for 10 years. I know a bunch of people who do this work, right, both biblical counselors, pastors, right? Like I know a number of people I have yet to hear of a woman who comes and says, I want a divorce simply because she’s just wanting to get out. Right? Like she has tried everything under the sun to save that marriage. She has sacrificed herself in many ways, in more ways than people can even imagine, to try to save that marriage. She has forgiven it more than you will ever understand to try to save that marriage. Problem is the other person isn’t doing that and is continuing to harm. And so alleging abuse is not a way to just end the marriage in a convenient manner. These are women who have tried everything, probably 18 times, right? And probably 118 times, if I’m being honest, and have finally come to the place where I have to set a boundary because I cannot continue to go on like either this person is flat out going to physically kill me, or I’m going to die because of what this is doing to my body and so I have yet to meet a woman who didn’t come to that place after utter heart break and rending of the soul. And so I think when a pastor hears that, his first move should be compassion, you know, and what got us here? What’s happened to you? I think that really should be the first question, and not, you know, “God hates divorce,” which, honestly, if we wanted to exegete that we totally could, because that is not what God is saying. It’s actually protection for women against wicked men. And so, which, you know, if you read that in the entire context, makes it very clear, but no one ever does that, and it’s very frustrating to me. Well, not no one. Many people, I don’t want a broad brush. Many people don’t do that when they’re misusing it. And so I will say she got there because there was no other choice. This is not her first choice. I have yet to meet a woman who’s like, I really would like to get married. I would love it to be an abuser, and I would absolutely love to have my entire personhood destroyed, come out a shell of myself and have to completely rebuild with a bunch of scars. Sounds like fun? No. No woman does that.

Ann Maree
And as you just mentioned a few minutes ago, it’s not advantageous to make those claims in court. Nope. And so why would we choose as wives who you know, if we were, I’m not, but if we were being abused, why would we choose one of the hardest to convince a judge to get our children to get support, to get alimony? Why would we use the hardest one, the hardest piece to convince a court system of. Okay, I have soapboxes too, so you’re gonna have to move over sometimes. Okay, touched on this last thing, though. Touched on this actually when we were talking about teams, but a pastor tends to ask when there’s a no contact order and the couple’s not interacting because of it, how do you know? How do you know if there’s been repentance? How do you know if there’s been forgiveness, etcetera?

Tabitha
The first thing I’ll say is that the perpetrator actually adheres to all the boundaries, right? They’re not trying to violate that no contact order. They’re not trying to get it repealed. They are content to say, “if I’ve done such great harm that I cannot be in the same place because she is so afraid, then I will honor that.” And they do, and they don’t use finances because they even if there’s no contact order, typically, there’s some sort of child support, there are things that need to be paid for for the kiddos. Very often victims of abuse do not have financial means, because the perpetrator has, you know, managed all of them, so they’re not hiding finances. They are not refusing to pay for, like, Billy’s soccer tournament, you know, if they decide that they want to put their kid in a travel hockey team, you know, they’re like, man, you know, little Billy would be amazing at travel hockey. He’s the next Gretzky, you know, then they were willing to pay for it. They’re not like, and you need to pay for it, which is, you know, a sign of a very soft heart, like, I want the best for my family, even if I can’t be part of it, right? And so they’re willing to do those things. They are willing to submit to whatever the church is requesting of them. You know, there isn’t that animosity, that harshness. They are saying like, “My wife is not the one who caused this. I am. I am in this position where I can’t talk to her or the kids because of what I’ve done.” Right? They’re not saying, “she did this to me.” You know? They’re saying, “I did this to me.” And so they have a good understanding of that responsibility. They’re not pushing for boundaries to be changed. They’re not pushing for something to be different. They’re not pushing for marriage reconciliation, even if that’s desire, and it’s not a bad desire of the heart by any means. But they’re not pushing for it because they understand the harm that they have done. You know, those are the things that you can see when there is a no contact order that are evidence of real change, and they’re not just for five minutes. Again, this is a long game when you see this over time, because anybody can do anything for six months, you know, even a year. But I need to see over time that your heart is different, because that is what is going to be indicative of whether or not you are becoming safer and becoming more like Christ.

Ann Maree
I love that you’re drawing out so much more in some of these little concepts that help us to understand much more comprehensively what we’re talking about when we’re talking about abuse to our audience. Unbelievable. Thank you, Tabitha! I can’t, I mean, we could go on and on, we’re over an hour already. I could just think of more and more questions to keep asking. So, yeah, we’re gonna have to do a part two. We’re gonna have to talk about wives not good as accountability partners in pornography use, many other things. Share with our audience. What are some of the things you’ve got going? I know you have a Winnebago and I know that you travel around a lot. Tell us what, what’s your schedule? What are your projects? What are you working on? 

Tabitha
So, yes, I am definitely. I get around. I think it a lot of different places and all kinds of things. Gosh, I will say I have a book coming out next year, in April of 2025 it is called Body and Soul, Healed and Whole: An Invitational Guide to Healthy Sexuality after Trauma, Abuse, and Coercive Control. One of the things that we see a lot in victims is sexual abuse. It’s not something the church talks about nearly as often as it should, and they definitely don’t talk about it with single women. And so you know, the stats are that one in three, well, one in four women will be raped in their lifetime. A lot of times, sexual assault occurs for the first time between ages 11 and 18. So if we look at that in the church, that is the majority of your women, right? And I see it take place so frequently, sexual abuse in marriage, in ways that, in ways that are just horrible, horrifying and, just absolutely terrible. So we talk about all those things in that book, I really walk through some of the worst harm and the ways that the Lord can help us heal. And it’s not a preachy book, because spiritual abuse is also very often part of this for people. And I am not a take two verses and call me in the morning kind of girl. That’s not my vibe. Uh, my vibe is like, Jesus is real and good, and he loves us, and he’s willing to get in the dirt with us, and that’s where healing happens. He was willing to condescend to become a human, right, like, with all of our frailties and, like, I mean, you know, he’s raised by a carpenter. He’s probably hit his thumb with a hammer and it hurt him, right? Like, not like, he made the hammer float, like, right? Jesus lived as a human. He’s experienced everything we did, and so he is such a compassionate healer for us. And so this book really brings that into the forefront, and really does have a lot of words for single ladies, because we don’t, you know, suddenly stop having sexuality because we’re single. We were made with that. And so how does that look if you are no longer married or have never been married? Like, how do we restore a healthy sense of sexuality as a single person? And so the book talks about that as well. So that is coming up, and I’m very excited about I’m actually speaking at Monday and Tuesday of next week, so in July. We’re recording in July, and this isn’t coming out in July, but you can go find it on their website for Trauma Support Services. I am talking on healthy sexuality and post separation abuse, and there will be videos available for that. 

Ann Maree
Oh, excellent. And that is going to be a really, really needed, helpful resource. Because, yes, I think the statistics, and you might not agree with me, but I think the statistics are much higher because of unreported abuses. But so yeah, I look at an I look at a church full of men and women, and think 95 to 99% of them have had some sort of sexual abuse/assault in their history. Yeah. It’s just Yeah. It’s a reality of being in a fallen, sinful world, sad reality. But anyway, thank you. We’ll be praying for this project, especially, and I know that speaking about it is one of the ways that you kind of work it out in your own head. And think, you know, what do I actually think? And so I’ll be praying for that this coming week. Thank you again. Tabitha, look forward to another time together. And yeah, blessings on your work.

Tabitha
Thank you, Sam. As Ann Maree, it’s been such a blast to be here. Yep, same.

Ann Maree
So that’s all for today. Join us next time on the Safe to Hope podcast. When we circle back with Renee’s husband, we’re going to talk to him and Chris Moles, who mentioned, when he heard Chris’s episode, said that Charles has some ways in which he articulates his experience which are really helpful for caregivers in identifying genuine repentance and what that looks like, practically speaking. And I would say we just, we just experienced that with Tabitha as well. But I look forward to being with you on that episode this coming October.

For anyone concerned about domestic abuse in their own home or in that of a loved one, and if you’re looking for more information, we recommend you go to the Called to Peace website link or ChrisMoles.org link found in our show notes. And we’ll be adding resources as Tabitha shares them with us. 

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Safe to Hope is a production of HelpHer. Our Executive Producer is Ann Maree Goudzwaard. Safe to Hope is written and mixed by Ann Maree and edited by Ann Maree and Helen Weigt. Music is Waterfall and is licensed by Pixabay. We hope you enjoyed this episode in the Safe To Hope podcast series. 

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We value and respect conversations with all our guests. Opinions, viewpoints, and convictions may differ so we encourage our listeners to practice discernment. As well. guests do not necessarily represent the views and opinions of HelpHer. It is our hope that this podcast is a platform for hearing and learning rather than causing division or strife.

Please note, abuse situations have common patterns of behavior, responses, and environments. Any familiarity construed by the listener is of their own opinion and interpretation. Our podcast does not accuse individuals or organizations.

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