Ann Maree
Welcome to the last story episode in Season Five of the Safe to Hope podcast. This particular season, we got to know and hear from our storytellers, Charles and Renee. As unusual as it is to hear this kind of story, we’ve been privileged to bear witness as God reconciled a marriage that had previously been ravaged by domestic abuse.
In the first episode, we got to hear from Renee and listen to her experience. Then in the episode, for the second part of their story, we heard from Charles. In between, we talked to expert contributors, Tabitha Westbrook and Chris Moles as they interacted with some of the concepts unique to Charles and Renee’s situation. In the final story episode, both Charles and Renee share some of the ways in which God met them in their story, and some of the ways they may have felt lost. But also we’re going to hear some of their suggestions to people-helpers for how they might better help couples in this situation. As previously mentioned, Charles and Renee have been married for 38 almost 39 years, and they have three children and seven grandchildren, and I want to thank you both once again for being here, for being vulnerable, for being with us on the podcast, and just willingly tell your story.
Welcome. Charles and Renee.
Charles
Thank you for having us, Ann, Maree.
Renee
Thank you.
Charles
I feel very strongly that this is God’s story, not our story.
Renee
Yeah.
Ann Maree
Yeah. That’s what’s making me has been making me kind of excited for this this episode. It’s always bittersweet because it’s the last one, but I’m so grateful that you thought through these things carefully, and you’re going to share them with us. So let’s just start off right away, and I’ll let you guys decide who wants to talk if you both want to say something that’s great, or either of you, each of you, whatever you decide, is good with me. But anyway, here’s our first question, and that is, where in God’s word do you find his heart for you?
Renee
You know, there’s so many passages that I, I did find, and do find comforting. You know, always think of Romans 8:28, “and we know that for those who love God, all things work together for good, for those who are called according to His purpose,” also Psalm 73:26 “my heart and my my flesh and my heart may fail, but God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever.” And Psalm, Psalm 138:8 “the Lord will fulfill His purpose. For me, your steadfast love, oh. Lord endures. For endures forever. Do not forsake the work of your hands.” So I you know, those are just a few verses that I find comfort in. But more so I find that what I learned from God’s Word is his character, that he is a God of love, and he cares for his children, he fulfills his purposes for each one of us. And that’s the you know, what I get from God’s word generally?
Ann Maree
Yes, I would just like to say thank you for bringing up Romans 8:28, because that one’s been weaponized so much in our culture, in this discussion about domestic abuse, or even abuses, or tragedy trauma at all. And so there, this is a good reminder of God’s Word can it can be a sword, if you will, but it can also be a balm for people. And you are in one of those tough situations, but it was a balm for you. So thank you for highlighting Romans 8:28.
Charles
I feel very strongly about a couple verses that have worked in my life, and the the Lord has worked through those verses in me. The first is 1 Peter 3:7, “likewise, husbands live with your wives in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessels, since they are heirs with you of the grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered.” The second is 2 Peter 1:5 through 8. “For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue and virtue with knowledge, and knowledge with self control and self control with steadfastness and steadfastness, with godliness, and godliness with brotherly affection and brotherly affection with love. For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord, Jesus Christ.” I would say, basically, if you’re not moving forward and you’re walking with Christ, you’re moving backwards. There’s no such thing as standing still or resting where you’re at. You don’t reach a plateau and stay on a plateau, either slide back or you keep climbing. That’s been my experience, my history with these verses. So.
Ann Maree
2 Peter is close to my heart, it’s the those are the verses that I wrote in a journal for my son earlier in life. Those were what I prayed for him. So yeah, thank you. There’s so much richness in even thinking through each one of those phrases of building and supplementing. Did you so let’s, you know, keep it honest, keep it real. But did you have moments that were difficult with your relationship with God?
Renee
Yes, yeah. You know, after we reconciled, after Charles and I reconciled, I went through a period of time where I struggled with, why, if, if God allowed us to reconcile, why so long? It was many years, and why did we have to go through all of that pain? Why did our kids have to go through all of that pain. And while I don’t know the answer, what I know is that with God, nothing is wasted. Pain is not wasted. There is a purpose, even though I I might, I might not know what the purpose is, but I trust the God who does. So you know now when I experienced, uh, difficulty, I can look back on that time and remember God’s faithfulness to me. Um, but I also believe that, you know, God is faithful even if things had not turned out the way that they did. God is still faithful, and I can just rest in that, not worry about why so long, but that there is a purpose in it.
Ann Maree
Charles, did you have an answer for that one?
Charles
Oh, yes, just about every moment of every day until I died to self and selfishness and confessed my sin to the Lord and to my wife and to my children, everybody that I needed to. I did struggle with God. I had a difficulty with my relationship with God. He wouldn’t let me rest until that was dealt with.
Ann Maree
That’s a beautiful way to put it. So either of you, what are some of the small deliverances that you experienced along the way?
Renee
I would say that, you know, there have been a few times that we have experienced difficulty, and I was afraid that we were going to return to how it was in the past. But every time, you know, within a short amount of time, we were able to turn things around, which then gave me more confidence that the reconciliation was something I could trust in. When we were going through the reconciliation process, we made very specific agreements or promises to each other about how we would respond to certain situations that would cause us problems in the past, things that would trigger arguments, etc. So as we moved forward and we would come up against some of those things, we could go back to those agreements that we made and apply them to the current situation. And that helped us. It’s kind of a roadmap of working through our problems, and it just allowed working through things much easier. So those were practical things that have helped us. But I would say, more importantly, we have learned to trust the heart of the other. Charles is for me. I am for him, and God has been faithful to be our help day by day as we have applied those practical things that I spoke of, but also just remembering that what our what our heart is in it, and that we are, we are for each other.
Charles
I would add that the things that I would call deliverances that I experienced didn’t seem too small to me, but felt very huge. It has been such a blessing to learn that I’m not responsible for everything, but that God is faithful and that I can trust and rest in what he is doing. It is helped so much that I’ve been able to understand my wife’s heart, and that is only possible through Christ, that I’m able to do that.
Ann Maree
Yeah, yeah. It is important to keep reminding our audience and ourselves, this is a work of God. He removes blinders, he restores the sight in hearing, and he draws us to himself. That’s not to say that we don’t have an action or a duty, if you will, even in our pursuing him, but it’s him that holds us, and we can’t do that. And it’s him that you know, as you’ve both said over and over, it’s him that’s done what he’s done. And Charles has said, “This is God’s story,” so that that could even be a comfort. But what other comforts Have you experienced along the way?
Renee
I feel like I have a friend in my husband. I am just comforted in that we didn’t have that before. I am comforted that our family is not broken, our children and grandchildren did not have to go through, uh, you know, a broken family, broken marriage. That’s a comfort to me, and just, um, the friendship that that Charles and I have now,
Charles
The greatest comfort that I felt, have felt is, I believe I expressed it in the in my story of the story of the prodigal son, and the comfort that I’ve felt of God’s forgiveness for me that to have Renee’s forgiveness was one thing, but I don’t feel like I could have gone on without knowing and feeling God’s forgiveness toward me.
Ann Maree
Yeah, and I’m just going to keep saying this, but thank you for saying that as well. Our sin is primarily against God, and when we’re working with individuals, perpetrators, if you will, of abuse, that is an emphasis that we want to keep bringing up and you’re articulating this so well, Charles in that that’s how God kind of worked the process, kind of worked the process of drawing you first to the devastation of sin between you and him, and then, of course, the natural progressive progression of this in between you and Renee. So, yes, when we see men who have been previously abusive to their wives recognizing their sin against God first and just being broken about that, that’s a good indication that we’re heading in a good direction. It’s a start. There’s more to go, but it is a great start. What has God revealed to you about himself in your story?
Renee
You know, I kind of feel like I say this over and over, but it’s, it’s just so huge that God is always good and always faithful. I can trust him completely. Sometimes seasons of suffering are very long and we can’t see what God is doing. But if we believe that God is good and only does good, therefore every moment is God’s best for me and in you. Otherwise he would not be God. I hope that others can find some comfort in those truths, no matter what their circumstance might be. Charles and I have had a different circumstance that has been extremely difficult and has resulted in much loss. A church family that we’ve been a part of for over 20 years. And as we have gone through this, I can look back and reflect on God’s goodness to us and remember that he will be faithful in this current difficulty, just as he was in this, in our story of abuse and reconciliation, that it’s just a reinforcement of God’s faithfulness to me.
Charles
I agree wholeheartedly that God is very good and very faithful. But I must add that the most important part of my story, and what God’s revealed about himself in my story, is the Gospel itself. You see the change in me from being an abusing, controlling individual to one who loves, loves his wife and seeks to be kind and non controlling was only possible because of Jesus. It is through my understanding that he came and sacrificed himself in my place where I should have rightfully have been because of my sins, that I can even begin begin to love correctly, that I can know what love is. Unless he is in the proper place in my life, everything else is out of place. It was by seeking to know Christ in his death, burial, resurrection, and nothing else that I was able to let go of myself and selfishness and seek to be like him. In that regard, it is also the only way to get past those doctrines of the church that we attended that were not helpful in sanctification and turning and in turning away from being an abusive controller. In other words, I had to turn from being a controller to one who is controlled, but only controlled by the gospel or good news.
Ann Maree
Yeah, yes. And I do want to just kind of break that down a bit, that the gospel is for unbelievers, of course, but it is for believers as well. The gospel saves and the gospel sanctifies. And so sometimes we have situations where helping the perpetrators are not believers, and the gospel is absolutely necessary before change, right? And sometimes they are believers, but the gospel can still be spoken. And I love how you just, you just articulated it, Charles, it can be spoken and given and re given, and it shouldn’t get old, right? But then also, Renee, I love, I love that you brought up remembering a prior circumstance. I think our hope resides not just in the future, but in the past. Because we have, we have a frame of reference, even if it’s not in our own life, we have that frame of reference in Scripture where God told us what he did over and over and what he promised and that he would do it again. And that is such a, ‘remember’ is such a key word in Scripture, and that’s, this is a plug for our upcoming resource, the remember journals. I think that’s going to be really, really important, just to keep thinking about remembering when it comes to helping others, especially with domestic abuse.
So I’d like to ask you both, I kind of have this feeling God does this pretty regularly. Has he put anyone in your path that can be comforted with this comfort that you’ve been given?
Renee
Yes, I have been able to encourage another woman and validate her as a woman and what she has experienced. She was not finding the help and hope that she was asking for and desperately needed. This experience with this woman reinforced to me that the sad reality that many of our churches are failing in this area. I would like to say that say to women listening that are discouraged because perhaps they are not seeing hope that their marriages will be restored. We recognize that many, maybe even most, marriages where there is any form of domestic abuse don’t end up where Charles and I have but that does not mean that God is not with them. He hurts with them and for them. So there’s nothing special about Charles and I, that somehow we deserve this. God does not love us more. I think of the idea of what Romans 9 and Jeremiah 18, where it’s God’s doing it. He is the potter, and we are the clay. But it’s been a blessing to just help this, this woman and be able to speak to into her story from experience, that it was just a blessing to be able to help her in and there have been other women that I’ve just been able to encourage, you know, maybe not to the to the degree or depth that I have with this, this one, but it’s, it’s a blessing to be able to share and help another from, you know, from my experience. I know many women who are either still struggling along in destructive marriages or the marriage has ended in divorce, and I guess I feel like I have a little bit of survivor’s guilt. My heart breaks for them, but I also know that God has a purpose in their situation. Just as he does in mine and ours. Psalm 34:18, “the Lord is near to the brokenhearted and saves the Christian spirit.” So I just have a huge heart for this, for women who are in these situations.
Ann Maree
Yeah, it’s interesting how he does that, right? I don’t hear many victims or survivors who don’t want to reach back for their sisters or brothers in need, because they have felt that incredible privilege of being helped and comforted by the Lord, and they want to participate in that with him for other generations and other other difficulties. Charles has anyone, has he put anyone in your path recently or any at all?
Charles
I don’t have to look very far, very long, to find people that can use encouragement and encouragement in how faithful the Lord is to meet our needs in those conflicts in our marriages. It, it isn’t as formal as what Renee does, but it, it’s just a natural part of life to want to express how great our God is and encourage others in the Lord.
Ann Maree
Yeah, I think you’re just a walking encouragement. And they The very fact that you exist as a husband who once was abusive and no longer is is comforting, and you’re comforting a whole bunch of people right now.
So, okay, here’s the big one. Here’s the big question that I ask. And just from your perspective, having walked this walk, I want to hear what you have to say. What do you wish pastors and church leaders knew about ministering to the victims and survivors of domestic abuse and how God met you in those circumstances?
Renee
First, I want to say that even though I feel like our church failed us, God did not. God is the one who did the work. But this is what I would have to say to church leaders, churches, and this is a quote from the DASA report, “the church must have an unfailing commitment to be governed by what God says about justice, mercy and defending the vulnerable. Silence does not protect the church or Christ’s name. When we stay silent, we tell the tell the world victims and abusers, we are okay with violence in the home. We tell children that violence is normal and the church does not care whether they or their family is hurting over against this posture, the god of refuge calls his church to be a safe place for victims of abuse.” So and I just love that. It just speaks volumes. So what I would say is, take advantage of the abundance of resources we now have available to train them in this area. I think you have said Ann Maree, as someone that has been through seminary, that seminary does not necessarily equip men that will later become pastors in this area. Also, women are a vital part of this ministry. Women in abusive marriages or difficult marriages need women… allow women to be a part of this ministry in your churches. As a woman who has experienced abuse in marriage, I very much have a heart to minister to women, as I said earlier. And I remember I, I don’t necessarily remember, but looking back on it, it would have been very helpful to me to have a woman that I could have, you know, talked to. So I just think that that’s a very big piece. In this same church that Charles and I had experienced the lack of help, I only found that I would not be allowed a place of helping other women as a result of the authoritarian influence in the leadership, even though I only espouse the educational opportunities that were accepted and approved by our denomination. Women were only allowed ministry opportunities in very specific areas, regardless of where the woman felt like she had a calling to, had education in, and experience in. But this particular church, there was no place for that, for women to be a help, there was no place for resources that were, quote, outside of the denomination. They were adamant about handling everything in-house, so to speak. And I would, I guess I would just say that only prideful church leaders will dismiss help offered to them in this area. If you are a woman and you find yourself in an authoritarian church, I think it’s you know, take time to evaluate the safety that you have there. I see a direct correlation between the refusal of church leaders to utilize the training and resources and the number of marriages in serious trouble because they do not receive proper help, also don’t mutualize abuse. The following is a quote from the DASA report, “label abuse as such, to prescribe the appropriate response abuse must be called by its rightful name, to label it otherwise is to minimize sin and treat the things that God hates lightly. Minimizing abuse fails to keep the flock safe and fails to direct the abuser to the path of repentance, redemption and perhaps reconciliation.” And then a quote from Darby Strickland’s book, Is It Abuse? “Finally, we blame victims because we fail to understand what abuse is. We impose what we know about healthy relationships on an abusive marriage and think that that a victim is valued by her spouse and can influence him for good. We believe that she can behave in a way that will make the abuse stop. That is simply not true. No amount of doing it right will enable the victim to make the abuse end.” And I have seen that firsthand and the damage that was done where she was not given the help that she needed, and the abuser was not given the help he needed, because there was no call to repentance, so to speak. And I just see the damage that that does and it doesn’t. Neither one is is helped when you mutualize abuse, it’s because of this idea that they just don’t get it for either the man or the woman, you know, and it’s, and it’s it’s just as important to address the the man as you know, we don’t we talk about we want to help women, but we also want to help men, because if we’re not addressing it correctly, men are not going to come to repentance.
Ann Maree
Yeah, good resources, too. And I just want to clarify if someone’s wondering, the DASA report is a report that was developed written by a group in the PCA, the Presbyterian Church in America, a study committee who researched for a report that we called DASA. It’s domestic abuse and sexual assault report, and we’ll make sure that that link is in our show notes, as well as Darby’s book of course, because she’s our she’s one of our faves, and she’s going to be on next after Charles and Renee.
But anyway, I don’t want to forget to ask Charles the same question, what do you wish churches and church leaders knew about ministering to victims and survivors?
Charles
I can only speak from this as a man and one that has abused and behaved very badly, the sinfulness and all that. So I’m going to say if the abuser is a man, then you deal with the abused as the abused, but any quote, unquote, sins on the side of the abused are set aside until after the abuser is dealt with. Once a male abuser is dealt with appropriately and behaving correctly, there should be proper leadership in the home. Then you give opportunity for God’s design to work before thinking about trying to correct any of the abused woman’s behavior. Those things seem deemed sinful of the abused, most likely are a response to being sinned against. Once an abuser accepts responsibility for his actions and lets go of wanting to correct the action and by others, he will start to lead by example. It’s far too easy for a controlling man to shift the blame away from himself, especially if he sees that the person he is in conflict with has a fault that is being seen by others, most especially leadership in our churches. So that’s what I wish most of all. But I guess my message to people involved in marriages and conflict, if you’re the abused and the church leadership is trying to correct your actions without first resolving the issues relating to being abused, then you should run away, as far away from that church as you can get, as fast as you can, and if you’re the abuser that has repented and turned from your sin and the leadership of your church has not interacted with you, I think you should seriously consider removing your family from that church, because by not doing so in a very real sense, my experience has been that you’re leaving them in harm’s way, that things aren’t right there, that I feel that I failed Renee by staying in a situation where that that did happen, and it was very painful and damaging. And to be honest, I can’t think of any area of my life that God has not worked in me and met me in through this experience.
Ann Maree
It’s an important thought that I hear often get maligned, if you will, about dealing with the abuse and setting aside the abused person’s issues. I mean, this is just something we could, it’s a perennial argument. I’m just going to read something real quick from well, first of all, quote a friend who says, all the time, right verse, wrong time. And so all of Scripture is good, all of Scripture is useful, right? But there are wrong times to use it, and there are wrong ways to use it. And in this situation, when the person who’s been abused has been traumatized, and because they’ve been abused, this process of dealing with her issues, I say, is both premature and deficient. Relief is what’s needed. It’s what’s urgent. Her abuse requires an emergency provision and relief from suffering, and if somebody’s in a dangerous position, in something that’s threatening and unsafe, I mean, imagine going up to somebody who just had a car wreck and confronting them with putting on the wrong turn signal and making it happen. No, you call the ambulance, right. Rehabilitation begins when the bleeding stops and it seeks to restore people. So, yeah, that’s a really important I mean, I’m taking those thoughts from a book called When Helping Hurts, which is a book written to missionaries who are walking on the field, walking into situations that could be potentially have a lot of trauma, and this is what they’re teaching mission-minded workers to think first stop the bleeding, and then you can deal with some of the issues, and sometimes that bleeding persists even beyond, you know, for the for the situations where the reconciliation doesn’t happen and there’s a divorce. Divorce is just another tactic that abusers can use. And so sometimes even after a divorce, a woman is still not safe, and it might not be the appropriate time to deal with her issues. So thank you Charles for articulating that one in particular.
Charles and Renee, thank you so much again and again and again for being here and for being raw and honest and vulnerable and just laying yourself bare for our audience and I thank you both for your careful attention that you’ve been paying to the Holy Spirit and his leadings and how he has led you here. I thank our Lord for that.
That’s all for today. Join us next time on the Safe to Hope podcast for the last episode in this series, when we talk with licensed professional Greg Wilson. Greg provides Christ centered counseling to families, adolescents and men in individual, couples and family contexts. He has experience working with families and premarital and marriage counseling, as well as families, helping them navigate many of the normal issues and then some of the more challenging issues. Greg is also the co author with Jeremy Pierre of a very similar title that I just mentioned before, but it’s called When Home Hurts, and that is an excellent guide for church leadership in particular, as it relates to responding wisely to domestic abuse in your church, also joining Greg, we will have one of our favorite regular guests, and that’s Darby Strickland. Darby, as you may know, is a CCEF counselor, speaker and the author of, as Renee said, Is It Abuse? She has also written for children, Something Scary Happened, and the soon to be released Something Sad Happened, and we look forward to having them interact with Charles and Renee’s story and their wisdom and insight into helping couples who could potentially reconcile.
For anyone concerned about domestic abuse in their home or in that of a loved one. And you’re looking for more information, we recommend that you go to the Called to Peace website, or Chris and or ChrisMoles.org and both of those links will be found in our show notes.
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Safe to Hope is a production of HelpHer. Our Executive Producer is Ann Maree Goudzwaard. Safe to Hope is written and mixed by Ann Maree and edited by Ann Maree and Helen Weigt. Music is Waterfall and is licensed by Pixabay. We hope you enjoyed this episode in the Safe To Hope podcast series.
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We value and respect conversations with all our guests. Opinions, viewpoints, and convictions may differ so we encourage our listeners to practice discernment. As well. guests do not necessarily represent the views and opinions of HelpHer. It is our hope that this podcast is a platform for hearing and learning rather than causing division or strife.
Please note, abuse situations have common patterns of behavior, responses, and environments. Any familiarity construed by the listener is of their own opinion and interpretation. Our podcast does not accuse individuals or organizations.
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