Ann Maree
Welcome to season five of the Safe to Hope podcast. As we get to know our next storytellers, Charles and Renee, last year, as the helper board brainstormed who to ask for the upcoming seasons, one of our team members mentioned it would be good to hear from a couple who had reconciled after abuse, statistically, reconciliation is infrequent in domestic abuse, so even finding a couple to tell their story seemed like a pretty big challenge, but we prayed about it, and we trusted God would send someone our way. Enter Charles and Renee. We met for a totally different reason than them telling their story, but when I asked if they’d consider sharing it, they graciously agreed. For this season, we’re going to first hear from Renee and listen to her experience, then in the episode, for the second part of their story, we’ll hear from Charles in the final episode, both Charles and Renee will share some of the ways in which God met them in their story and some of the ways they felt lost, but also their suggestions to people helpers for how they might better help couples in this situation. Okay, back to Renee. Charles and Renee have been married for 38 almost 39 years, and they have three children and seven grandchildren. Thank you for being vulnerable here with us on the safe to hope podcast, Renee and willingly telling your story. Welcome.

Renee
Thank you so much for having me.

Ann Maree
Absolutely and it’s my pleasure to get to know you, both you and Charles, just a little better. For this podcast, I want you to just feel at home. Our goal, as always, is to hear you your circumstances and experience, but also to hear how God’s redemptive thread flows throughout your story, by way of reminder for the audience on the safe to hold podcast names have been changed in order to protect those associated with these stories. The Helper ministry exists to train people helpers in order to promote healing for women in crisis. So integrity is one of our concerns. To the best of our ability, we have sought to honor the privacy and dignity of those who share their precious stories with us. Renee, if it would be helpful, perhaps you can give us a bit of background information about who you are and what some of the early influences were in your world?

Renee  
Yeah, I was raised in a very loving home. I was loved unconditionally. My parents were engaging and caring. My dad is not a Christian, but my mom is. She actually came to know the Lord when I was a little girl. She took me and my sister and my brother when he would go to church, and shared the gospel with us. I made my own profession of faith in Christ as a young girl, and I grew up going to church and Sunday school and participated in our denominations youth activities. However, despite my claims to be a Christian, in my teen years, I drifted away and was not walking with the Lord. As I started dating, my mom used to always warn me, be careful who you date. You might just fall in love. She knew the importance of marrying a believer, but I don’t think she felt like she could say much to me about it, since my dad was an unbeliever, honestly, being unequally yoked seemed to work well for my parents, so I didn’t give it much thought. I had no other frame of reference, so I never considered this in any dating relationship, let alone the one that would end up being the most significant. It was in high school when Charles and I began dating. We spent roughly four years dating off and on. It was when he was a junior in college and I had just returned home from my second year at college when I finally agreed to his marriage proposal. I knew that marrying an unbeliever went against God’s design, but I made the. Decision to move forward, telling myself that since my parents seemed to have a successful marriage, I could too. So the following summer, we were married, he completed his final year of college, and we returned to our hometown, where he would continue working on the family farm, and where we wanted to start our family.

Ann Maree  
Thanks. Renee, and I hear what you’re saying. My husband and I, we’ve counseled many couples engaged to be married, and I don’t know of many young people who think about important things carefully when they’re in love, but also having gotten to know you and heard your story a few times, I know you’re also not saying that it was your fault for being unequally yoked or not thinking carefully about who you married, that the marriage ended up being abusive, if you don’t mind, talk with us now about what marriage looked like in the early Days.

Renee
Okay, yeah. As a young couple, we were generally getting along just fine. Those months while he finished his senior year went pretty well. One thing I noticed, though was his anger. I felt like I needed to stay in my place, but I didn’t always know what that was. I didn’t know how to express what I was feeling. We lacked effective communication skills and conflict resolution skills, and the honeymoon was wearing off. I had an expectation as to what I thought our marriage would look like, but it was not turning out that way. After Charles graduated, we moved back home and he started working on the family farm. His time was taken up with work and his hobbies. I was disappointed all the love and attention that he poured out on me while we were dating was gone, and it seemed like he was mostly focused on what he wanted to do. I knew that it was not healthy, but I had no way of understanding what the problem was. But one thing was certain, I couldn’t wait to start a family. It did not occur to me or us that we should have taken this opportunity to assess the state of our marriage before we started a family. So shortly thereafter, we learned that I was pregnant, we were both happy and terrified, and I was mostly happy. Of course, God is always at work, and he used this occasion to do significant work in my heart, I knew that it was imperative to raise our daughter in the nurture and admonition of the Lord, and it was going to be up to me, and I was not sure how he was going to respond to that. It was during this time that I realized the significance of my decision to marry an unbeliever due to my theology at the time, I thought the choice that I had made was God’s second best for me, God has a perfect plan, but we can make choices that divert that plan. This caused so much distress for me as I struggled in the marriage, I felt like it was all my fault. I had messed up God’s good plan. For me, I have a correct understanding now, but that did not come until years later,

Ann Maree  
Right? And just want to address that briefly. And yeah, we can’t. We can’t necessarily change God’s perfect plan, right? I think that’s what you’re saying. You understood more later. In hindsight, of course, it’s 2020, but nothing you’ve said that you did or didn’t do still would warrant mistreatment from anyone, let alone your most intimate partner. So go ahead and talk a little bit about what life looked like now that you’re going to church and children are in the picture. What does that? What does all of that look like?

Renee  Yeah, I started attending a church that I grew up in and that my mother still attended. I began to study my Bible, attend Sunday school, and I felt like I was learning and growing in my walk with the Lord. Charles grew up in Mormonism, but he was not active in that church. Thankfully, he did not object to me going to church or taking our daughter, and I was so very grateful for that. We had our second child a couple years later, and I remember happy family times. We seem to be doing pretty well. We lived on the family farm, which provided great opportunities for doing things as a family and fun activities with the children. We were raising our children much the same way we were raised. I was adamant, however, about witnessing to my unsaved husband, which in turn caused more conflict. He did not want to hear about my God, and would become angry if I pushed too hard. However, God had a plan and was accomplishing His purpose. I remember a set of cassette tapes that I came across that addressed the errors of Mormonism, and amazingly, he actually was willing to listen to them. Of course, I did not know at the time how God was working in his heart. And fast forward, Charles made a profession of faith when our second child was about one, and I thought, wow, now everything is going to be okay. No, everything was not okay, but I did not realize how much it was not okay. We had our third child. We’re doing okay. We were involved in church trying to raise our kids and the nurture and admonition of the Lord, we were involved in church life. Charles was the church treasurer. We attended a Bible study with a group of people that were a significant source of encouragement. But at home, we were still doing that crazy cycle.

Ann Maree  
Yeah, what do you mean? What is that crazy cycle?

Renee
Our fights became more intense and sometimes violent. It was never about physical abuse. He never hit me. His words became more and more hurtful during these times, no matter what I said, it was always twisted and used against me. I was always wrong. Many times I would just give in and say, “You’re right. It was my fault” because I just wanted to stop fighting.

Ann Maree  
Yeah, that is such a devastating way to live. I know it’s hard maybe for our audience to believe that words hurt more than fists, but women in abusive marriages like you tell me that they’d prefer the fists because the bruises would heal. I don’t know you. I don’t know if you would say that, but women would say that that would be preferable. Weaponized word bombs do not heal as much, and I have to confess that in the early years of counseling, I really mishandled these very same types of reports of abuse that I heard from from wives. I would say, “you can’t hurt an emotion,” and especially when they talked about it being tied to always being wrong. I had learned to say that as Christians, we’re called to be humble, to accept critique, to grow in responding biblical to quote, unquote persecution. But sadly, well, gladly, I should say I’ve grown from there. Sadly, that’s where I was. But now, having walked alongside multiple diminished and sinfully harmed wives, I’ve learned that in an abusive relationship, the victim has to be wrong. Their status as an image bearer must be pushed down, which is a sin against you. It’s a sin against the image of God in you. The abuser’s goal is to discredit your perspective and silence you. He wants what he wants. He feels he has a right to what he wants, and his goal is to win. Lundy Bancroft writes “he can’t accept your differences of opinion and doesn’t want to let his thinking be influenced by yours.” Unquote, his perspective, thoughts and ideas must take precedence. A woman who lives in that persistent atmosphere, always being told that she’s wrong shrinks as a human being. She becomes less than, which is also a goal in a superior inferior hierarchy of an abusive relationship. Knowing you’re always wrong is more than just hearing those three words or knowing that that’s what somebody thinks. It’s a climate. It’s an atmosphere. It’s kind of like living in a dehydrating appliance. It sucks the lifeblood out of your being. The very spirit that nourishes your humanity, your image, but your story took a different and another difficult turn. So tell us more about what happened in the midst of this present turmoil.

Renee
In the winter of 1995-96 we learned that Charles had cancer, and as a result, would not just lose his vision, but also his left eye. This happened just a few days before Christmas, and it was a very difficult time. As a result of the cancer, we ended up leaving the family farm, the place where we thought we would leave. Live and raise our children. It was a hard transition for Charles, learning a new job, while, at the same time, adjusting to singular vision. In addition, he was on a treatment for the cancer that made him feel very sick, and as a result of that, he became very depressed. This was a significant turning point while for the entirety of our marriage, we struggled. It was probably at this time that it took a turn for the worse. The fights became even more intense and frequent. There were times where fights would take place while we were driving, and I feared for my safety, because  of his erratic driving, my words were taken out of context, or he would claim things that I never even said. He would make assumptions, but when I tried to clarify, I was not believed. It was always his narrative. No matter what I said, we would go through these cycles where we would have huge fights and then things would be okay for a while, but nothing would ever truly get resolved. We would just move on.

However, in the midst of a very dysfunctional marriage, there were happy family times. We have great memories of camping trips, fishing trips, hunting trips. We both loved our children very much, and we spent a lot of time doing stuff with them. One thing that always seemed to be consistent, though, was inconsistency. Everything would be fine, and then I could say something that he took wrong, and instantly it was not fine. If I tried to clarify or correct. It didn’t matter. He only believed his narrative. Sometimes he would be angry at me for days or weeks, and I was given the silent treatment, as he was punishing me. The conflicts kept coming, and I became increasingly dissatisfied with the marriage. It seemed like no matter what I did, it was never right. Communication was very dysfunctional. I tried to communicate well, but that was never right. I felt like everything was my fault. Trying to resolve any conflict was only done on his timetable. If he did not want to talk and resolve things, I would get the silent treatment. There was always that elephant in the room feeling as the children grew into their teen years, it became even more difficult.

The same old fights would come around, but seemed worse, and I hated that our kids were growing up in this kind of environment. Our two oldest daughters married and left home, and it just seemed to be getting worse. By the time our third was a senior, it was very toxic. When our third child left home, when we were empty nesters, it got even worse. I knew it was bad, but I had no way of understanding what was happening or why. So I sought help from our pastor. I met with him and tried to explain how bad our marriage was and that I felt like we needed help. I did not know how to understand and let alone how to explain what the problem was. I could only describe situations, conversations, attitudes, actions. The pastor would listen, and then he would tell me to go home and try to love him well.

Looking back on this, I realized that my disclosure to my pastor was simply diminished. I felt like it was viewed as a place for me to share my struggles and vent. But I desperately wanted help, even though I didn’t know how to ask for it. I needed help to understand what was happening. I desperately wanted someone to step in and help us, even though I was adamant that my meeting with him, the pastor, was not to be made known to anyone. Deep down, I wanted someone to step into our lives and help us, even though I had to communicate something very different out of fear, I was told at home that the problems were my fault. I was the one that was wrong. Every conversation felt schizophrenic. I remember a point that I felt like there might be hope for us turning things around. Charles and I had had a really good talk, and I finally felt like we could have an open, honest conversation.

The very next morning, I brought up something that I felt was important. I tried to do it in a very loving kind way, but this was met with an overturned chair, accusations of an affair. And demanding that I leave and I could not have the car. Another argument that happened on a Sunday afternoon after church resulted in him taking the keys and not allowing me to leave the house, but I still had my cell phone on me, so I called our daughter to come get me. She and my son in law came and they called the pastor. The pastor came to our home and talked with us both. The advice we received that day was not bad, but it was like putting a band aid on a broken bone. I felt like I was going crazy. I tried to find resources to help me understand what was going on. I did not want to stay in the marriage, but I felt like I had no biblical reason to leave. All the while we attended church on a regular basis, and no one knew there was even a hint of a problem. There was one particular fight that resulted in some holes being punched in the wall.

At that point, I knew I had to involve someone else, so I called our family friend Jim and asked him if he would meet me at the pastor’s office. I relayed what had happened to both of them, Jim and our pastor, and immediately felt like Jim was going to take it seriously, as opposed to what I had experienced with the pastor.

Ann Maree  
Wow, as you’re telling this part of the story, I physically feel the weight, the burden of hopelessness, frustration is a word, but I think it’s just hopelessness. You can’t find the words, you can’t find the help. And I just want to reiterate for our audience that we are talking about a situation that happened many years ago, years before there were helpful books for us to read, such as, Is It Abuse?, or When Home Hurts, that were written to help the church learn about and recognize patterns of abuse. Again, this is not an excuse. However, victims themselves had a difficult time putting language to their circumstances that might draw church leadership to conclude the severity of the situation. Renee, it seems like this might have been a turning point, though, as Jim entered into the picture, can you tell me more about that?

Renee
Yes, it did not take long for Jim to get in touch with Charles. They met for breakfast a couple of times. I was not privy to those conversations, of course, but God was at work. Interestingly, though, at that point, my heart was hardened and I wanted out. At that point, I felt like I did have a biblical reason… abandonment. I was certain that I was on my way out. I was terrified at the thought of our marriage ending, but also relieved at the thought of being free from this terrible marriage. Of course, God had other plans. As Jim got more and more involved and met with Charles, things began to change. Jim and his wife sponsored us to go on a weekend retreat where we each would go to a separate weekend. There was a weekend for the men and then a separate weekend for the women. Even before Charles went to his weekend, I started to see some change. One morning, he confessed to me that he was addicted to pornography. I told them that he had to tell Jim. It hurt so deeply that he had been involved in this at different times. I suspected he was but he always denied it, and I believed him. I was so angry I just wanted out. So I made plans to leave. At that point, I didn’t know what that meant. Was it just going to be a separation, or would this end in divorce. I made the arrangements as to where I would stay, and I called Jim to come over to be with me when I told Charles. I was afraid he would become angry, and I felt like I needed some protection. When I called Jim, he said he would come, but if there was any hope left at all, he encouraged me to stay in the home so that we could work on our marriage. He felt like it would be too difficult to work on it if we were separated, so I decided to stay. Charles had been away on a hunting trip, and when he got home, I told him I would stay, but he had to stay in the spare room. He did not even get angry. He told me that he would do whatever I needed him to do.

Ann Maree
I appreciate your friend Jim, and I hear his heart for your marriage. Again, just to remind everyone in our audience that there was not a lot of good information at this time about coercive control and escalation of abuse, and I’m sure Jim’s heart was, is likely in the right place for Charles and Renee. However, we don’t recommend telling a victim whether or not she should stay or go. The victim is the most informed person in their situation, and they need to be the pacesetter. They alone know whether they are safe and they alone live with their decisions. 

Renee, it is still astounding to me how the rest of your story progressed. I mean, we so infrequently, like I’ve said before, get to hear positive outcomes in abusive marriages, but yours is definitely one. So please share some of the ways you’ve said things began to change. Tell us some of the ways in which they were changing.

Renee
I remember one night when we were in our separate rooms, I sent him a text telling him that the Lord forgives even our most terrible sin. I felt like he was remorseful, and somehow, even in the midst of all my anger, I still wanted him to know that God would forgive him, and God was at work in my heart as well. In the past, I had heard so many apologies from him. Somehow, this seemed different. He acted differently. He showed kindness when he came home from his weekend retreat, I felt like God had really done a work in his heart. He wanted to wash my feet. He asked for forgiveness for all that he had done to hurt me. But it was more than some words at the end of a weekend or washing my feet. He was different. He was kind. He listened for days on end. We would come home from work, sit on the couch and talk and cry. He confessed wrong thoughts, attitudes, behaviors and asked for forgiveness. He was very specific about naming each thing and asking forgiveness for each thing. He told me that I could ask him anything and he would not become angry, which was something very new and different. We talked about how we could hold him accountable for the pornography. He told me that at any time, I could ask him if he had been unfaithful again in this way, and he would not become angry. This has proved to be true to this day, sometimes I will be triggered and will need some reassurance. He is always open and willing to be honest with me and talk through things with me. I remember during those days, sometimes I would wonder how long it would really last. I asked the counselor that we were seeing when I could trust it. I don’t remember exactly what he said, but he told me that it was not healthy for me to live with that question hanging over my head, and I had to trust God in it. It has been over 11 going on 12 years now, while our marriage is not without the normal marital struggles. I can say that it is a marriage that I never thought we would have. There is mutuality, reciprocity, respect, kindness, encouragement.

Ann Maree
Thank you, and a I know this has not been easy, but like I said, it is amazing. Such an encouragement to hear you, and I find myself thanking God though it’s been 11 years that have now passed since his intervention in this situation. When we did our workshops together, you said something I thought was profound and also helpful for women in a similar situation. As I said, not a lot of cases end in this kind of reconciliation. And there might be women in our audience who are asking the question, why for them. They also ask a lot of the time how, how would I know if repentance was genuine? And when I asked you that, you said that Charles was not better, but different, and I heard you say that several times. But that made it better. I don’t know if that is helpful for a woman to hear if she’s looking for genuine repentance, but the differences, I think, that you articulated were so very helpful to understanding, you know, how you could even continue to pursue that path towards reconciliation. Darby Strickland, she talks a lot about genuine repentance, and she said it looks like never running out of material for confession. And when we talk the next time for your story, and I think we’re going to hear that from him, but we definitely heard it from you, it was like he couldn’t stop confessing. He had more material to keep, to keep talking with you about. We don’t ever arrive at holiness, at least not the holiness into which we’re still being formed. So humility will consistently draw us to confess, to repent, and to make things right that had been done wrong. I think that humility is more what we’re looking for. And I think your answer to this question is simple yet helpful. In domestic abuse, we’re looking for different, not better. Renee, thank you for being here, of course, thank you for your vulnerability in telling this story, for your willingness to bring it up again, including all of the emotions that come along with talking about your story and drawing up from the past hurt and pain that you live through, being so raw and honest and thank you for being so careful to pay attention to the Holy Spirit and His leading, and for both of you to be willing to be led by the Holy Spirit to share and steward your story with us.

Renee
Thank you for having me and giving me the opportunity to share what God has done.

Ann Maree  
That’s all for today. Join us next time on the Safe to Hope podcast, when we will talk with Tabitha Westbrook, a licensed therapist, a trauma specialist, an author and a speaker. Tabby has more credentials than we have time to share and experience working as an interventionist with men accused of coercive control and abuse in their intimate partner relationships. I’ll look forward to sharing with our audience her expertise in working with these situations. 

For anyone concerned about domestic abuse in their own home or in that of a loved one, and if you’re looking for more information, we recommend you go to the Called to Peace website link or ChrisMoles.org link found in our show notes. 

[closing]

Safe to Hope is a production of HelpHer. Our Executive Producer is Ann Maree Goudzwaard. Safe to Hope is written and mixed by Ann Maree and edited by Ann Maree and Helen Weigt. Music is Waterfall and is licensed by Pixabay. We hope you enjoyed this episode in the Safe To Hope podcast series. 

Safe To Hope is one of the resources offered through the ministry of HelpHer, a 501C3 that provides training and resources for those ministering in one-another care and advocacy for women in crisis in Christian institutions. Your donations make it possible for HelpHer to serve as they navigate these crises. All donations are tax deductible. If you’d be interested in partnering financially with the ministry, go to help her dot help and click the give link in the menu. If you’d like more information or would like to speak to someone about ministry goals or advocacy needs, go to HelpHer.help. That’s help her dot help.

[disclaimer]

We value and respect conversations with all our guests. Opinions, viewpoints, and convictions may differ so we encourage our listeners to practice discernment. As well. guests do not necessarily represent the views and opinions of HelpHer. It is our hope that this podcast is a platform for hearing and learning rather than causing division or strife.

Please note, abuse situations have common patterns of behavior, responses, and environments. Any familiarity construed by the listener is of their own opinion and interpretation. Our podcast does not accuse individuals or organizations.

The podcast is for informational purposes and is not a substitute for professional care, diagnosis, or treatment.

[end]