Julia  00:01

The heart of a narcissistic system, or narcissistic individual, if you just want to look at an individual, is it’s about maintaining their image and their reflective glory. So what sort of tactics are usually used to manage the image?

 

Wade Mullen  00:20

Well, there tend to be tactics that do protect a positive image, because often what’s what’s viewed as as threatening is information that would threaten the leader or the the organization’s the the team’s reputation and and with that might be their access to money power. So there’s often like greed behind it, and ambition and that, and that kind of thing, which is all, which is all be being threatened. So, so one response might be to just to just try to come up with a way to keep these allegations from ever entering into the light. So using silencing tactics, those could be threats, if you were to tell you realize what would happen to this church. So a threat is usually in response to that is a threat of some kind of danger, either to the person who’s bringing the information into the light. Well, this is what will happen to you if you proceed. And it could be like a threat of a lawsuit, for instance, or it could be the threat of some kind of danger to another person. So, so a leader who’s abusing a victim might say to that victim, you can’t tell anybody, because if you do, then this will ruin my life, right? So there’s that’s a form of intimidation and a threat. So I think those kinds of intimidations that are used to silence are very common. But then if it, if it does come into the light, then I think this is where you see a lot of of self promoting language like, you know this, this is, this is not like us. We would never engage in this kind of behavior. He or she would never do this kind of a thing. And here’s why. So a lot of self promotion. And in response, darvo, again, is a common response where there might be some kind of a denial. And in my book, I talk about all different kinds of denials, and so there might be different types of excuses that are offered. Well, you have to understand that he was really stressed, or he was under medication at the time, or he he was just, it was a moment of poor judgment. So then there’s different kinds of excuses, or there might be some kind of a justification. And I in the book, talk about what a justification is, and how that’s different than an excuse. Justification, basically, you know, says that the action was justified. So it could be, hey, this, you know, this may have been painful to you, but it’s ultimately for your good, and we’re treating you in a harsh way, because this is for it’s it’s justified, or you brought this on yourself.

 

Ann Maree  03:19

This is the safe to hope podcast

 

Ann Maree  03:40

Ann, hello and welcome to the safe to hope podcast. Safe to hope. Hope, renewed in light of eternity, exists to offer women space to tell their stories of suffering and loss with care dignity and honesty, though all suffering is loss, we ground that belief in a God who cares and remains present. This is our hope. This podcast is made possible by donors who believe faithfulness means protecting the dignity of women’s stories and creating a space for truth telling without pressure or performance. Together, we listen for God’s redemptive thread and look for ways to join him in his transforming work. My name is Ann Maree, and I am the Executive Director of help her and the host of this week’s podcast, and today I’ll be joined in the studio with our resident expert and board member, Julia. Vilno, Julia, it’s fantastic to have you here again. Oh so good to be here. Before we begin, I do want to take a moment and care for our listeners, the safe to hope podcast. Typically includes discussions of abuse, and this season will as well. In particular, we are going to be talking about spiritual abuse. However, our conversation may also include discussions about other abuses. Please listen at your own pace and take breaks as needed. If at any point you need to pause or step away, that’s okay, your well being is what matters. Today, we are both joined with Wade Mullen, and he has graciously offered to help our audience understand spiritual abuse better and the impact for those who experience it. Wade has a PhD in Leadership Studies from capital seminary and graduate school. His doctoral research focused on the responses of evangelical organizations to crises and their use of impression management strategies. He is the executive editor of institutional response at Grace, which is godly response to abuse in Christian environment. He is the author of something’s not right, decoding the hidden tactics of abuse and freeing yourself from its power. Welcome Wade and thank you for joining us.

 

Wade Mullen  06:25

Well, thank you. It’s great to be on the podcast with you and discussing this important topic,

 

Ann Maree  06:30

very, very important topic. And so we are grateful that you are able to to be here today. So I’m just going to let Julia kick us off and see where we go from there.

 

Julia  06:43

Wade, thank you so much again for being with us. I know both Ann Maree and I have personally benefited from your work, your research, all of your writings help us particularly understand what has happened, both to us and to many of the clients that we help. So this is our launching episode, and I think it’s going to be a great discussion to help us sort of frame what spiritual abuse looks like and how it presents in organizations and systems. Most of our experts throughout this season have had their own story of how they got into the work and what motivates them to stay in the work. So I’m interested just to hear from you whatever you’re comfortable sharing about how you came to be where you are right now.

 

Wade Mullen  07:37

Yeah, well, thank you for sharing that, and I’m glad to hear that the work and the book has been validating and encouraging and helpful, and I I got into this work because of an experience I went through about 10 years ago now. I was serving on staff at a church as a pastor, and I had been there for about seven years or so. In the last two years of my time there, had experienced receiving a number of disclosures of abuse and misconduct, and decided to respond the best way that I knew how in each of those situations, guided by law and expert advice, and just what I believed was was was right and ethical, and what I didn’t expect was that the leadership, or at least some leaders, responded to that in A way that was harmful, that viewed these disclosures as threats to their image, to the reputation of the church, and so I would hear things like these stories could take us all down, or do you realize what this will do to the church and and so for About two years, my wife and I had battled against that and tried to advocate for victims of abuse in that context, and it didn’t realize just how much of an impact it was having on on me and our family and it it took reaching out to to Some experts and some mentors and therapists to to help me to understand this is this is really unsafe, this is really dangerous. And at one point, my wife and I told our story for the first time, after about two years of navigating this, to an older couple who were mentors of ours and and I’ll never forget one of them. The end of this long story that we shared of what we had experienced from leadership, just said that this is this is abuse and with passion and anger, and that was eye opening for me. And it it began. I. A process of of deciding how, how we, how we protect ourselves moving forward and what we needed to do. And so I had been encouraged by by another mentor and a therapist to to, at that point, go to leadership and say what really needs to happen here is for an top notch third party to come in and do an independent investigation. And if, if you’re willing to do that, then I willing to be a part of that. But if you’re not willing to do that, then then I need to resign and and and it took a lot to get to that point, and the mentor who had been counseling me at that point had given a really powerful metaphor. She said, the church at this point is is like a ship that’s headed into a storm and it can decide to hunker down and close up all the windows and try to protect itself as it enters into this storm. But if it does that, then sin is going to destroy that ship, or it can begin to turn that ship around and open up all the all the windows and head toward the light. And you have to make a decision whether at this point you’re going to to stay or not. And if, if that ship begins to turn around, and the only way can turn around is third party coming in and doing this independent investigation, then you can be a part of that, perhaps. But if not, then you need to leave, and you need to leave immediately. So that was really helpful and empowering advice. And so I communicated that to the leadership at the time. And initially thought, okay, they, based on their initial responses, this is what’s going to happen. And there was some hope there. But then I remember receiving a message from one of the elders that just said, you know, it’s clear that nobody’s followed Matthew 18, and that if we just humble ourselves, then we should be able to handle this ourselves and and that was just that was a gut punch, that was a devastating message, because then I knew at that point, this is what this is what we have to do. And so my wife and I made the difficult decision to leave and to leave immediately, and and, you know, we also were living in a house that was owned by the church, and so they wanted us to vacate that house immediately. And that was a Friday, I remember, we packed up the next day left, we went and lived in my grandparents basement apartment. We had two kids at the time and and then on that following Sunday, we weren’t there, but we had heard that the pastor had gotten up and and basically shared that, that I resign just because I wanted to move on, and gave no real reason for that. And that was that institutional betrayal of here. You know, the hardest part for us was the two years navigating this was really difficult and painful, but but the the months after we resigned was was even more difficult and and so we left, and we were living with my my grandparents in their in their basement apartment. And about six months later, the because of of of a number of other stories that started coming to light from others who had faced similar behaviors and had been treated in similar ways that we had because of those stories were coming to light and other another pastor on staff in particular had had really taken a stand. They had decided to to ask the pastor to resign, and that was a big, pivotal moment, but there was a leadership and there was a board that still hadn’t taken accountability. So we had, after six months, because of a number of people from the church who were coming to us and saying, what happened, and can you tell us what, what, what took place, we decided to meet with the board, and we told them, we’re going to we’re going to meet with the people, and we’re going to tell them why we left, what happened, and we’d like you to be there. And so they scheduled a meeting with the congregation, and I presented to the congregation the reasons why I resigned and what had happened over those years, and another pastor did the same. And that was a big turning point in the life of the church and and the response of leadership at that time. And so two weeks after that, they invited my wife and I back. Us to the church, and they publicly apologized to us, which is really healing. And then all of the all of the elders who are still at the church, who had ever served as an elder in the church, so group of maybe 15 to 20 or so got up and they confessed to the church systemic failure over years to protect the church and and so this was just a really healing moment for for us and and so i i lots happened in between all of those big milestones, but I share some of that to just to point out that we had walked through a lot of the a lot of the different experiences that that I describe in in the book, and that’ll, I think a lot of people experience, if they go through a spiritually abusive relationship or environment and but we also experience on the other side, the the the experience, experience of having others support us and bring solidarity and speak truth on our behalf, and also the experience of having received what we believe to be a sincere and genuine apology and go through that process of reconciliation, Which I know for many people, they don’t experience that, but that was something that we were able to walk through. So that’s how I got connected to this whole field, through experience. And then also around that time, I was pursuing a PhD and continued that work after I had left the church and decided that I was going to focus my research efforts on how evangelical organizations respond to an image threatening event or a crisis that threatens their reputation, and how they might use impression management in the wake of that. And so I was walking, then after this experience through this research process, so that’s how I got connected. Wow.

 

Julia  17:08

Thank you so much for sharing. Have so much compassion and empathy for your story and what you and your wife have been through. It sounds like you guys were very trusted helpers in your community, and because of that, so many people came to you and were asking for help and care, and usually that’s where situations of harm or unhealth or abuse are revealed in those kinds of cases. But I also understand the burden that that places on you and your wife as caregivers for these people coming forward, only for you then to be needing care yourself in the process. I know it takes a toll. Thank you, and it sounds like there’s also a lot of similar patterns to what we see in our spaces, though, every case is different. There’s a lot that you’ve expressed that runs on some of the same tracks that we know happens in these kinds of contexts. And it’s so interesting to me that at the time that you were going through this, you’re also studying, or chose to study, what occurs and systems and and how it plays out. I feel like that’s the goodness of the Lord,

 

Wade Mullen  18:31

yes, yes. And I, you know, I could have never have mapped all of this out. And yeah. And so I became linked to it, and I had a mentor of mine at the time, this challenged me to do something with that link, you know, to take these experiences and and I was going through a process of of studying and earning my PhD and and was just encouraged to to to turn this into a meaningful work that could be something that might be helpful to others who are going through similar experiences.

 

Julia  19:09

Yeah, what evil intends for harm God means for good, before we move into some of more of the content. Is there anything in your story or personal experience that you wish you had known while you were inside it.

 

Wade Mullen  19:25

I certainly wish I would have known more about you know what, what abuse looks like, even definitions of abuse, particularly spiritual and emotional abuse. So it wasn’t until later that my eyes began to open to these dynamics. So that educational piece and and then also, I think it it took me a while to to learn that there are, there are others out there who are. In positions to be able to provide support, who have walked these through these situations themselves, or are professionals who understand them well. So I just didn’t know at the time, until others began to refer me to organizations like race and other professionals, and it took me a while to connect to those individuals, and that was a just made a huge difference in my own understanding, but also in the decisions that we were making at the time.

 

Julia  20:37

That’s so good, because trauma isolates and disconnects us from others. So having an opportunity even to connect with an organization, if not individuals within the organization, can be so reparative. Yes, yeah. So how getting a little bit more into kind of the technicalities of understanding spiritual abuse. How would you define spiritual abuse?

 

Wade Mullen  21:07

So there are a number of different definitions out there, but a lot of of experts who have written literature on spiritual abuse, like Lisa Oakley, for instance, view it as a form of emotional abuse or emotional misconduct. So I think it’s always helpful to start there, and we define emotional abuse or misconduct at Grace as a pattern whereby a person in a position of authority or trust uses that authority, that power to control or manipulate others through behaviors like shaming, dismissing, bullying, threatening, humiliating, degrading, the other person, insulting them. And then spiritual abuse tends to be a component of emotional abuse, essentially emotional abuse with a spiritual dimension. So, using the tools of religion, using a sacred text like the Bible, using spiritual language, using shame and guilt and fear to control and domineer another person, and it generally presents as a as a pattern of behavior over time, not not usually one specific event, although there can be isolated events, isolated incidents toward individual people, that occur as part of an overall pattern. So we tend to view, and I tend to view spiritual abuse as a form of emotional abuse, but then also it can, and I think this is important for people to understand. It can, it can co occur alongside of other forms of abuse. So, for instance, many perpetrators of sexual abuse are religious. People view themselves as religious, and so they may use spiritual abuse in the process and in the context of committing sexual abuse. So for instance, someone may experience being victimized in the context of sexual misconduct and abuse, and then immediately after that, that act, the perpetrator might pray with the victim, tell the victim that if you know you need to forgive me, and if you don’t forgive me, then God won’t forgive you, or you need to make sure you don’t tell anybody about this, because that could destroy my ministry. It could destroy the church. So spiritual abuse can can co occur or happen alongside of and in the context of other forms of abuse, like sexual abuse, physical abuse, financial abuse. So it’s a form of emotional misconduct, but it can also, it can also occur alongside of other types of abuse.

 

Ann Maree  23:49

The similarities between spiritual abuse and domestic abuse. Do you see any connections? I mean, besides the obvious of you know the same types of abuses, emotional, spiritual isolation, you know, just different things like that. But, yeah, I mean, just even thinking in terms of, I don’t know how, how far I can go with this, but the body is the, I’m sorry, the Church is the Body of Christ, a bride of Christ, speaking in terms of that, like it is, it is a relational aspect. And so domestic abuse is, I don’t want to say performed, but it happens in a relationship. And so I’m starting to wonder about the connections. Anything on that.

 

Wade Mullen  24:39

Yeah, I think there’s a lot of connection and and I’ve heard this from others who’ve experienced domestic abuse or violence from an intimate partner, and they describe how some of what I’ve written in my work and in the book matches up with their experience. Because I think. So often the the abuse is happening in the context of language that’s being weaponized, that’s being used to to coerce and control the other person and and there may be, there may be specific incidents throughout that like a an incident of aggression, of violence, of assault. But in between those incidents, there’s this, there’s this environment that’s been created of fear and shame and guilt, and that becomes, that becomes the constant, and that’s being, I think, cultivated by the abusive person, through the use of language, through the use of of coercive tactics that are designed to to keep a victim in a place of of isolation, in a place of dependency, in a place of feeling shame and blame, and so often, the the the perpetrator, especially if they’re a religious person, or if they’re, let’s say, a person who is in a position of spiritual trust, trust, and they have theological knowledge, and they’re articulate, they might then use that spiritual language, the Bible, to keep a a victim, even in a domestic situation under control and compliant and silent and gripped by by fear and that, I think that fear and shame becomes so much so often the constant that that person experiences throughout and this sort of spiritual abuse can be used to maintain that.

 

Julia  26:46

And I think it is important to sort of bust those myths that we have about what these individuals or situations look like in the realm of domestic violence, most people think it looks like physical or sexual assault, and that’s not the case. A lot of the foundation of of those situations is emotional and psychological abuse. And the context of a spiritual or faith based system, there’s the perception that it’s just the weaponization of Scripture, although that is one aspect of it, or pillar that holds up the structure. It can be much more subtle than that, and I think the more that we’re studying what spiritual abuse looks like, the more we’re seeing that there’s so many different tactics at play. But again, the foundation to what you were describing Wade is coercive control, and that presents mostly in the form of emotional and psychological abuse. Yeah, absolutely. Your book something’s not right, sort of starts with the premise, the idea of how important language and categories are to understanding what this looks like, and I think that that’s the most compelling thing for me as both a care provider and a survivor and to your story, it was important for you that you you needed those categories and that language to understand What was happening. Miranda Fricker, I don’t know if you’re familiar with her work, but she she talks about this idea of hermeneutic injustice, which means that when we don’t have language and categories or something that’s occurring, we can’t make sense of it, and sense making defaults to the people with the most power, so they get to define what’s happening, what things are, and in a faith based context, obviously that’s the people who are in positions of leadership. So I don’t know if you have any thoughts or reflections about that idea, but again, I just appreciate that your motivation and so much of your work, whether it is in your book or other articles, is framing things up and helping people understand categorically what’s occurring around them.

 

Wade Mullen  29:20

I think language is, is like, like you said, just a huge, a huge part of this. And it’s, it’s so often the tool that’s used to to control. And then on the flip side, though, that it’s, it is so often a a mechanism by which people who have been experiencing victimization in that course of control might begin to gain some understanding, and also gain some empowerment to be able to name what’s happening to them and describe it, even if that just begins with being able to name it to themselves and and describe it to themselves. And begin, begin to begin to make make sense of a confusing and. Captivating experience. So I think language is really, is really important, and that’s why I believe, if I remember correctly, I should, because it’s my book. But the opening quote in the book is from Joseph Brodsky, was a essay, essayist and poet who was exiled from the Soviet Union, who wrote, you think he didn’t, I believe he said this in a speech. He said, You think evil is going to come into your houses wearing big black boots. It doesn’t come like that. Look at the language. It begins in the language and and so I think actually, it begins in the heart of and mind of the person who is targeting another, who is viewing other people as objects to be manipulated. And so it’s the opposite of love. So rather than, rather than viewing people as people made in the image of God, who are worthy of respect and deserving of a sacrificial love. Love is willing self sacrifice for the good of another person, rather than treating other people in that way. Think the abusive person views others as objects to be manipulated for their own benefit and and then that process of manipulation comes out initially in language, through through words and and then I also believe that, you know if, if evil is beginning to manifest itself through communication, through language, then that Evil language tends to show up first in language that is very self promoting and grandiose and narcissistic, in which that person is trying to to control others by manufacturing trust. And one way they may manufacture trust, especially if they’re in a position of of authority in a position of public trust is they may may promote themselves as being someone who’s worthy of trust, but they do that in a manipulative way and in a deceptive way. And so it all begins in language, I think, and then it continues throughout the entire process, through language that’s going to change over time.

 

Julia  32:24

I have that quote written down, and you nailed it. It’s verbatim, exactly what you said. How prevalent Have you found? Is it in Christian communities? I understand that it’s a very hard thing to research. Not everybody who’s experienced some kind of victimization in the church comes forward and speaks about their experience is actually more typical that they leave the church not even understanding what has happened to them. But I don’t know if there’s anything like through grace or any other organization where they’ve studied the prevalence within Christian communities. Can you speak to that?

 

Wade Mullen  33:09

I don’t know of any research that’s out there that, and it certainly may be out there. I’m just not aware of it that speaks to the prevalence. I think you make an important, point that most abuse does happen in in secret and in isolation and and most instances of abuse aren’t aren’t reported. And so it’s very hard to then understand how prevalent any any kind of abuse is, because we just don’t know. But I I do believe that wherever you have communities gathering under some form of spiritual power, where you have individuals or groups of people who hold spiritual authority, there’s obviously, is that potential for that to be misused and abused. And so I think it’s something that every church ought to expect is happening at some level, to some degree, maybe not presently, but might in the future, or has in the past. But I also believe that most people, let’s say most pastors, most people who are in a position of providing spiritual leadership are not, are not viewing other people as objects, are not treating other people as as people to be targeted and manipulated and abuse. Most, most pastors, I don’t believe, are out to set a trap, but it happens far more frequently than I believe we realize. And so I am grateful that there is so much attention, I think, more attention being given to this topic, because I think it’s it’s happening with more frequency, and it’s. More prevalent than than we may want to admit, but I don’t have any, like, hard numbers.

 

Julia  35:06

Yeah, no, but I love just the idea that we need to be aware and we need to sort of prepare and watch for otherwise we’re going to be caught off guard and reactive and even think, well, this shouldn’t be happening. This can’t be happening. So that’s really helpful, especially for our audience, who may maybe haven’t personally experienced it, but they are in a position of leadership, or they’re in a community themselves, so they know how to help and respond.

 

Wade Mullen  35:44

Yes, one of the one of the sayings we include in a lot of our trainings at Grace, when we go to a church and do a training on on topics related to abuse and misconduct, is that the safest church is an educated church and and so even if a church may not be experiencing in real time a situation involving spiritual abuse, the ongoing education surrounding this topic is really important because that’s going to promote safety.

 

Julia  36:16

So in trauma and abuse, training and education, and also in my own clinical training, we constantly talk about systems, how dynamics within a system shape behavior, how they protect roles, how they protect power, even if no one is intending abuse or harm. I think what I’ve noticed correct me if I’m wrong, but what I’ve noticed is that when it comes to churches, we tend to abandon Systems Thinking altogether, and it seems that we either idolize the church or idealize it as a kind of perfect spiritual family that should be above suspicion. Or maybe at worst, we see the church as neutral. And I’m wondering why this idea of systems, thinking and understanding and system is such a blind spot for churches, or maybe even threatening to churches or faith communities?

 

Wade Mullen  37:28

Yeah, I think it’s a good question, because it it might be that it’s it’s easier to explain something away if we can isolate it from the system and say that, well, this is an anomaly, or this is not who we are, and there’s a there’s a concept that I write about, called casting away reflected shame, and the way that I view that is, it’s an impression management response in which an individual organ or an organization might respond to an event or a person that they perceive to be reflecting Shame on them and on their community, and they might then in response to that attempt to cast that, cast that away, and that could look like simply ignoring it, or it could look like saying that, well, this, this is not who, who we are, or using NDAs to to keep information a Secret. And I think the opposite of that is to or an antidote to that, is to think and see in systems and to understand that. Let’s say if there is a destructive leader, then there could also be a conducive environment that makes that leadership destructive or enables that, and there might also be people and followers who are who are susceptible to that. So this is drawing upon some research that leadership experts have done on systems, and they came up with this model called the toxic triangle, that in this toxic environment, at the top of the triangle there’s a destructive leader, or leaders and and there are certain characteristics of that. But then the another point of the triangle is a conducive environment, and that could be an environment where there aren’t any checks and balances. There is an accountability. There aren’t policies in place. It could be cultural in nature. And then the other point of the triangle are followers who either enable and collude with that destructive leadership, or followers who may be success. Susceptible, susceptible to that destructive leadership, perhaps because there isn’t education being provided. So that is a that is a that is a system, and I think it’s really important for a church anytime that they think about spiritual abuse or other forms of abuse, and certainly when they’re responding to situations of spiritual abuse that they that they think and see in systems, because they may, they may very well make the mistake of kind of casting away the part of that that they want to quickly just remove, but still keep in place the the system that has created the conditions for that harm to happen in the first place. So I think it’s, I think it’s really important to think and see in systems.

 

Julia  40:59

I think it’s easier to focus on one of those aspects of the toxic triangle that you’re describing. Maybe it makes it more manageable?

 

Wade Mullen  41:09

Yeah, I believe so. And yes, and you know so, for instance, someone might, instead of, let’s say, removing a destructive leadership and then not addressing anything else, they might say, we just need better policies, but if they don’t deal with the destructive leadership, then they can have the best policies in the world. But if they don’t have the character to support those policies enforce them, then that causes a breakdown in the system. But it might be easier for them to, instead of addressing the destructive leadership, to just say, well, this is a policy issue, and we’re just going to fix our policy. So I think that’s an important consideration too, that maybe it is just an easy, convenient response, and they’re not. They’re not taking a more comprehensive and deeper approach to it,

 

Julia  42:00

and I think if if we look and examine the systems that we’re a part of, maybe that would force us to examine our own worldview, our own theology, and that feels dangerous, because so often Our theological understandings and our worldview is so tied to our identity and our sense of belonging in a community, it takes much more work to think systemically.

 

Wade Mullen  42:35

And you know, and I one of the eye opening parts of the research that I went through was when I began to see that many of the responses to, let’s say, any kind of crisis or a situation involving abuse, is driven by a response to an identity threat, so people that could be the community or leadership they view, let’s say, allegations of spiritual abuse as a threat to their identity and and that can then have a powerful impact on how they choose to respond, because they may want to, to cling to that identity and believe that, let’s say this is, you know, this is a place, we are a people, where this kind of thing doesn’t happen, and if it is happening, if we acknowledge it, if we speak publicly about it, then, then that’s going to, that’s going to be a threat to who we are and how other people view us and our whole identity that is called into question. So that was an eye opening, a moment for me in the research to view the response to these kinds of events as as a response to an identity threat,

 

Julia  44:00

an identity crisis and fear and anxiety where you’re focusing on community and losing, actually the bigger picture of God’s power to redeem and God’s power to recreate and reconstruct, but yeah, I do see that as well in my limited scope, that the people who are responsive responding to protect the community or the church, it’s often fear based and anxiety based.

 

Wade Mullen  44:40

Yeah, you know, and what’s neglected. Then, to your point is that there, you lose sight of who God is, the character of God, the work that God might be doing in and through this, but then also losing sight of the the people who are most impacted, namely the victims, and because of the 10. Question goes to what is this doing to us and our identity? And we need to protect that. And so then an organization and a community can very quickly lose sight of who God is and his character and what it means to emulate him in these kinds of responses. But then also what’s happening to those who have been most harmed by this, the victims themselves. And are we loving them well, or are we just focused on protecting our own reputation?

 

Julia  45:32

You describe destructive leaders as a point in the toxic triangle. You describe the environment that fosters and allows it to grow. And you also describe the followers. The followers are those the same as enablers.

 

Wade Mullen  45:54

Think in in the in the research that Padilla and his colleagues conducted on that they, they, they broke followers up into two sub categories, so colluders. So those would be enablers, those who are colluding with the destructive leadership and and then, you know, I think that in a church situation or a faith community tends to be maybe Friends of the destructive leader or other leaders and and I think that’s an important aspect of any kind of of environment in which spiritual abuse is taking place and being overlooked and thriving is that you have colluders or enablers who are either either in support of the behavior or they’re turning a blind eye For different reasons.

 

Julia  47:00

Why would you say that enablers are so devastating, both to the system but also to the victims?

 

Wade Mullen  47:10

One of the reasons why I think it’s so devastating is because what can happen is the the abusive leader, let’s say, who’s using his or her position of trust to domineer and control another person and is causing harm, might use language and certain narratives, often twisted narratives, to shape the perceptions of A community or of a leadership team, especially if allegations are being brought to light, or there are concerns that are being brought forward, and then enablers, what they, what they tend to do, is begin to mirror that language. So if the destructive leader, the abusive person, is using a lot of victim blaming is using darvo tactics, which is Deny attack, reverse victim offender, Ann acronym that Dr Jennifer fry came up with. Then enablers mirror that kind of language, and for the experience of the victim survivor, they may go through what is often a long, destructive, painful relational dynamic in which they’re receiving these, these messages over time that are coercive and erosive to their identity and who they are, and just really damaging and breaking them down over time, and then somehow, in some way, maybe that behavior, the behavior of the perpetrator, of the abuser, comes to light, comes to the attention of leadership or the community, when other leaders or community members enablers, then Begin to mirror that language begin to mirror those abusive tactics, then it’s as if the victim survivor now is being subjected to not just an individual who’s engaging in these tactics, but now a team. In a sense, it’s a group of people teaming together to perhaps discredit a victim or to silence them. And so that can be really destructive. And and then I think also it can, it can be really harmful just in the sense that it allows the destructive behavior to to continue, not just in, let’s say, an individual victim’s life, but also in the life of the community. And so what is tolerated gets renegotiated, and destructive behavior becomes worse over time, and other people then are affected by it, so often in a spiritually abusive environment. Environment, you have multiple victims, and so enablers Can, can just allow that to to to develop over time, or well, then where? Then you have destructive leadership that’s having a negative impact on multiple people over time.

 

Julia  50:18

So maybe what started out as abuse at the hands of one or two individuals all the all of a sudden, becomes communal and systematized, yes, which often differentiates spiritual abuse from other forms of abuse. And it’s similar to a family dynamic, where in a family system, there’s a truth teller that comes forward, and because of what they’re bringing forward, the family wants to push away that shame or that truth or silence it, and that person becomes the scapegoat. But if you’re thinking about in the in the concept of a of a church, then one person becomes the scapegoat of an entire community or a handful of people, becomes the scapegoat of a community, yes.

 

Wade Mullen  51:07

So then there’s another layer of harm, and that’s coming from the institution, from the community, which is, which is really painful,

 

Julia  51:15

yeah, which most people would say is secondary abuse, but it feels pretty primary. If that’s your community,

 

Wade Mullen  51:23

yeah, and it’s and it’s such a betrayal, because you know, if you’ve been victimized, and you believe that, okay, now if maybe the community becomes aware of this, especially if leadership, people who are in a position to do something about it, if they then know about this, then surely they’ll do something. They’ll put a stop to it, they’ll care. But when they do the opposite, then you then you experience that profound betrayal on top of it.

 

Julia  51:51

And I think there’s people who become those flying monkeys where they will perpetrate harm because they are embedded with the system or the abusive individual, or are abusive themselves. And then there’s ones who who think that they’re loving Jesus and protecting the institution, but they’re really protecting abuse within the institution,

 

Wade Mullen  52:21

yes, and because of that belief, then they might be very zealous and very aggressive in doing what they think is actually right, and may use all kinds of tactics to to shut a victim down, to silence, to protect the leader, because They think that’s what God wants. That’s what that’s what’s needed in this moment and and so it can be something that is, that is done with, with just great aggression and zeal, because people think they’re protecting something sacred.

 

Julia  52:55

And in that sense, it becomes more damaging. Is there something common that they these sorts of enablers or colluders say or do? Can you give some examples?

 

Wade Mullen  53:16

I think they they might say something like this is destroying our Church. This is causing division. This is gossip. This is damaging the reputation of the leader, the pastor and and sometimes I think where that might be coming from is an experience that, let’s say, other leaders have of the abusive. Let’s say it’s a pastor in which their experience is is one that maybe is, is largely positive or or they’ve overlooked questionable behavior, policy violations, boundary testing and and so they might, for instance, have only experienced the positive side, let’s say the the the language that The pastor uses to to coerce trust, to promote themselves, to charm, to flatter, to ingratiate themselves to others, especially to those who might have more power than them, like an elder board. So you might have a group of elders who are enablers, who have only ever experienced, let’s say the senior pastor, being in their eyes, wonderful to them, at least, but that so then when they hear someone who has less power than that Pastor come to them and say, well, he’s been he’s been threatening me, he’s been intimidating. He’s been using the Bible as a weapon. He’s been engaging in this pattern of emotional misconduct and spiritual. Abuse, then a group of people, let’s say board members or friends of the leader, who have not experienced that, might then disbelieve the report from the victim survivor, because, well, that’s just not their experience and and so I think sometimes it comes from this, this, this misunderstanding of how abuse dynamics tend to operate, that most people who are committing abuse, they are doing it in, you know, behind closed doors, in places of isolation, and they are actually grooming the community around them in ways that are are getting other people to view them as worthy of trust and likable and those kinds of things. So sometimes it’s it’s this kind of enabling that’s coming from leadership just as naive to the dynamics of abuse. And then when they do receive a disclosure, they don’t want to believe that what they’re hearing is true, and so they choose a path of protecting the leader.

 

Julia  56:07

It’s a form of denial. And to your point, they also don’t have those experiences, so they can’t conceptualize how this person would do this behind closed doors. So rather than ask questions or become curious, it’s so much easier to side with with the person who is benevolent and God’s servant and in a position of authority, they have much more to risk by asking those questions.

 

Wade Mullen  56:36

Yes, and I think Jenna Dr, Jennifer Fried’s work on portrayal blindness is helpful in this regard. Talks about why, why we fool ourselves. We aren’t being fooled. And I think that happens often within leadership, especially when there’s a another leader who’s who’s being abusive, and they hear about those concerns, and then they they’ve they don’t want to believe that they somehow haven’t seen this behavior, or they somehow have have missed it. And so in my work, I’ve heard time and time again, leaders, enablers, bystanders say, Well, this can’t be true about this pastor, let’s say, because, if it is, then somehow I missed it all of this time well. And what they’re focusing on there in that moment is, is what this means for them, what this says about them. And so they’re again, what, at least what I’m hearing, is there’s this identity threat that they’re responding to. And so they choose to enable, or they choose to ignore as a way of protecting their own reputation or their own sense of self in that moment.

 

Ann Maree  57:45

What’s missing in the the teaching coming from the front of the churches, that is, I mean, we’re talking a lot about identity here and the impact. What is, what are we not hearing from our pastors and shepherds? What teaching is missing? Doctrines, anything I mean, or conversely, what’s being wrongly conveyed?

 

Wade Mullen  58:13

I think one of the things that is missing is teaching, and not just teaching, but a a cultivation of an ongoing learning environment where issues related to vulnerability and and power and how, how God views The vulnerable, how God uses power, how Jesus uses power, and how we are to steward that, that that power. Diane langberg talks a lot about the this topic. I think those concept, those are foundational concepts to to to all issues of abuse, because all forms of abuse can be traced back to power, I believe, and the misuse of power and the mistreatment of vulnerable people. So talking about concepts related to vulnerability and sources of vulnerability, and understanding that a minor, of course, is vulnerable. Adults can be vulnerable. Elders can be vulnerable. A subordinate person on staff can be vulnerable. So talking about these different sources of vulnerability, someone because of a life circumstance, might be vulnerable, and then talking about these different sources of power, or power that comes from expertise, power that comes simply from one’s position as a pastor, power that comes from being charismatic and having a likable personality and a good reputation, power that comes from being able to give people rewards or punish them. So all of these different sources of power. Can be, can be linked to sources of vulnerability. And in the context of a faith community, vulnerability and power is always at work. It’s it’s these. These interchanges are happening constantly and and I’d like to see churches give more attention to that. And these themes are woven throughout the Bible. The Bible talks at length about vulnerable people and how in God’s heart for the oppressed, and the Bible talks at length about how power is to be used by shepherds and people in positions of authority within a faith community. But we, you know, we, I think we tend not to to to focus as directly as we can on those topics. And what it could look like is to, for instance, not to have sermons that are that are dedicated to these topics, but to also think through, how can a community stay in a in a place of of ongoing learning, where these concepts are showing up in prayers, they’re showing up in announcements, they’re showing up in newsletters, they’re showing up in a resource page that the church puts on their their website. I would love to see elders say, or whoever the leadership team is of a church say, we’re, you know, we’re going to meet twice a month every year. That’s our routine meeting schedule, or once a month, or however often they meet. And every time we meet, we’re going to talk about some aspect of what it means to to protect the community our church from abuse. So we’re going to talk about, even if it’s just 10 to 15 minutes, we’re going to talk about this, this aspect of abuse, or we’re going to talk about this aspect of what, what it means to be a trauma informed organization and a church, so working it into all layers of the community, starting with the leadership, where there’s this effort to to cultivate this, this environment of education and ongoing learning surrounding these topics.

 

Ann Maree  1:02:11

Oh, it’s good, yeah. And that was you just answered one of the questions that I was waiting to ask, so that was embedded in there too. Thank you. Yeah, power and more understanding of vulnerability for sure.

 

Julia  1:02:22

Yeah, and power isn’t just about role and position to what you’re saying. It’s it’s much more multifaceted than that, and it can be power even with people in the congregation who maybe have social standing or influence that others don’t have. So it’s it’s a communal understanding of power, which is also very important. Yes, part of your story, even that you were sharing before, was that people were coming to you in need of care and in need of help, and that sort of catalyst, often that crisis is is not what causes harm and abuse. It’s usually the crisis that actually reveals maybe what’s been there all along. And I’m interested to know, because people have different categories and definitions of crisis, how would, how you would define what a crisis is within an organization?

 

Wade Mullen  1:03:33

It’s, it’s usually an unexpected event or series of events, so something that people didn’t foresee and they might be surprised by now, I think that ought to be mitigated if a church is educated and if there are policies and procedures in place, but it’s usually an unexpected event that has a high impact, a negative impact on numerous people characterized by, and this is, I believe in my dissertation, a loss of control, where leadership feels as if events are happening at a speed that they can’t keep up with, and and they feel as if they’re not equipped, maybe, to respond, so they lose control. And that’s where, again, where power can come in and be very easily misused to regain control. But then also, within a crisis, there’s a potential, then for additional losses, and there’s a potential, a potential for additional crises, especially if the response is one that’s poor and harmful, then there’s another crisis. And also, yeah, I agree that there tends to be this behind the crisis, a a something under the surface, or behind it, where the the event is. Is threatening because perhaps it might reveal something that is has been kept under wraps or has been kept a secret. So a crisis can become a cycle or recursive, where you have you have, over time, an environment or an organization, a community that’s characterized by a series of crises, and when a new crisis emerges, then the the threat of that crisis might be the revelation of all the other prior crises that they were able to cover up or or keep hidden in, some way. And so that sometimes is the main crisis. The main crisis is, oh, if, if people were to become aware of this allegation related to an abuse of power within our leadership, in that it might empower all of the others who have had similar experiences to come forward, and all of a sudden, it could reveal this whole cycle of destructive behavior over time. And so this is another aspect of a crisis as well, where one, one, let’s say, allegation might, in the eyes of leadership, threaten a whole history of destructive behavior that they’re trying to cover up. And so the crisis is one of image control and information management in that, in that kind of a thing. So that’s a long definition and explanation. And there’s different types of crises, like an accident or a natural disaster might be a crisis, but in my work and in our work, you know, on the subject matter related to abuse and spiritual abuse, a crisis, is typically looking at some kind of a human failure

 

Julia  1:06:52

and the heart of a narcissistic system, or narcissistic individual, if you just want to look At an individual is it’s about maintaining their image and their reflective glory. So what sort of tactics are usually used to manage the image?

 

Wade Mullen  1:07:12

Well, there tend to be tactics that do protect a positive image, because often what’s what’s viewed as as threatening is information that would threaten the leader or the the the organization’s the the team’s reputation and and with that might Be their access to money power. So there’s often, like, greed behind it, and ambition and that, and that kind of thing, which is all, which is all be being threatened. So, so one response might be to just to just try to come up with a way to keep these allegations from ever entering into the light. So using silencing tactics, those could be threats. If you were to tell you’ve realized what would happen to this church. So a threat is usually in response to that is a threat of some kind of danger, either to the person who’s bringing the information into the light. Well, this is what will happen to you if you proceed. And it could be like a threat of a lawsuit, for instance, or it could be the threat of some kind of danger to another person. So, so a leader who’s abusing a victim might say to that victim, you can’t tell anybody, because if you do, then this will ruin my life, right? So there’s, that’s a form of intimidation and a threat. So I think those kinds of intimidations that are used to silence are very common. But then if it, if it does come into the light, then I think this is where you see a lot of of self promoting language, like, you know this, this is this is not like us. We would never engage in this kind of behavior, or he or she would never do this kind of a thing. And here’s why. So a lot of self promotion in response. Darvo, again, is a common response where there might be some kind of a denial. And in my book, I talk about all different kinds of denials. And so there might be different types of excuses that are offered. Well, you have to understand that he was really stressed, or he was under medication at the time, or he he was just it was a moment of poor judgment. So then there’s different kinds of excuses, or there might be some kind of a justification. And I in the book talk about what a justification is and how that’s different than an excuse justification, basically, you know, says that the action was justified. So it could be, hey, this, you know, this may have been painful to you, but it’s or. Ultimately for your good, and we’re treating you in a harsh way, because this is for it’s it’s justified, or you brought this on yourself, and if you didn’t behave in this way, then this wouldn’t have happened to you. So it’s justifying the the action. So these are all different kinds of defenses that are used. And there’s, there’s lots of different tactics of defense that a leader or an organization, a community, might begin to employ when they feel like their their identity, their power, is being threatened, and then just one other, and there’s so much I mean, what just one other I might I might point out, because it’s so common, is if, if they get to a point where the defenses are no longer working, because, let’s say, maybe more people are coming forward to share similar stories, or there’s more evidence that’s coming to light, and the facts are no longer undeniable that they can’t they can’t anymore say that this didn’t happen, or this behavior didn’t happen, or this impact didn’t happen to other people, then they might try to to concede. And this is what I call a concession, where rather than offer an authentic apology and make restitution and repair and go through that very difficult process, they might want to just make the whole thing go away. And an individual could do this too, might want to just disarm what they still view as a threat and people who they view as objects who are threatening to them by just conceding that. Okay, yes, this happened, and we’re sorry. Now let’s everybody move on. But it’s not, it’s not authentic. It’s a concession, and it doesn’t go through the very difficult work of lamenting and repairing and and restoring justice. So that’s another common response that I see, usually more, you know, more toward the end of this kind of a cycle of a crisis response, where an organization or a leader might finally concede the basic events and facts, but not actually go through the work of making amends.

 

Ann Maree  1:12:07

Overwhelming.

 

Ann Maree  1:12:08

I could tell, that’s what I can I can tell there’s passion behind all of that, though, in your understanding. So, yeah, just wow, I’m thinking I need to make lists. I mean, I need lists of these things.

 

Julia  1:12:20

It’s so important to see the impact of those kinds of behaviors, because the impact is confusion. The impact is the loss of truth, the loss of clarity. I’m not sure in which of your publications you wrote this, but you say, when clarity is lost, urgency and action begin to fade as people retreat to a more comfortable neutrality. If the story feels complicated, people feel less confident taking a stand. Yeah. Unfortunately, it works.

 

Wade Mullen  1:12:54

It does. And this, this, this concept of confusion is, is so significant, sadly, because when people are kept from information that would give them an adequate sense of what’s happened to them and to others, then they’re they’re kept in a place of confusion and and then that creates a source of vulnerability, and it’s easier for People who are intent on misusing their power to control others when others are confused. So confusion is huge, and it’s used throughout this whole process, from like from beginning to end. You can see you can trace these spiritually abusive tactics and this language to to maintain that confusion and maintain that control, so that, let’s say, if an organization or a leader is trying to excuse their behavior or justify their behavior, they may pull in some kind of biblical text and say, Well, you know, well, yes, The pastor did this, but he’s no different than David, and David was a man after God’s own heart, so that, so you might see this kind of spiritual language that’s being used to coerce other people. Or when they come out with a concession, not an apology, but they say, Yes, this happened, and they may even say, We’re sorry that people were may have been harmed by this, or mistakes were made, or something like that. Then if people don’t accept that, then they might say, Well, you’re not being forgiving. You’re not being gracious, and God commands you to forgive. And we said we’re sorry. Why aren’t you forgiving us? And so the you can see how this kind of spiritual abuse of language can be used throughout the entire sort of cycle that someone might go through, but it all from beginning to end is is creating this, this cloud of confusion

 

Julia  1:14:53

and and that’s what we have to notice, that fog, that confusion. Ann, in your writing, you talk very descriptively about like environmental conditions of the fog rolling in, of mirrors being warped and distorted, things being added and subtracted, being trapped by four walls. And those kinds of descriptions are so helpful for victims survivors, because it is what we feel and our body we can’t we can’t necessarily put our finger on it when we’re in it, because the confusion is so thick that we can’t see and that’s what you describe in your story and even the title of your book. Something’s not right. You can’t quite figure it out, but something’s not right, and that fog and that confusion is actually a symptom of the emotional and the psychological abuse. So once, once there’s this theater play taking place where it’s image and impression management, it’s silencing, it’s subtracting. It’s confusion like that’s when the abuse becomes more systemic and more problematic and the entire community gets impacted. So we don’t often hear about when things go well or healthy responses, and so we don’t often hear about healthy repair or actual transparency. What does it look like for forgiveness and a healthy God honoring, spirit filled apology? What should we look for to know whether it’s true or not?

 

Wade Mullen  1:16:44

I think one of the things to look for is whether or not this, this language that’s being used to manipulate and, course, is being surrendered. So in my book, I use this acronym, score, S, C, O, R, E, to help people identify what an authentic apology might look like now, disclaimer, I think every every acronym, every model is has its limitations. So there may be something missing from this, and every situation is different, but, but what I what I think is often necessary as a starting point, as a prerequisite to an authentic apology, is for those who are, who are in that place of needing to apology, apologize and make amends, to surrender all of the impression management tactics that they’ve been using, which is often the most difficult thing to do, because it means they have to to stop viewing other people as objects, stop viewing themselves as the most important person and thing to protect, and their own reputation and the image of the church and that kind of thing. So they have to surrender all of that and then surrender all of the impression management tactics that are so often used to protect themselves. So one of the things that I’ve done when I’ve looked at an apology that might be issued by a leader or by an institution is to see in that apology whether or not they are still promoting themselves, if they’re still trying to coerce other people defend themselves. And usually can tell whether this is designed to protect them or if it’s designed to make amends, because of just how much impression management might be in that. And so in a communication where impression management isn’t surrendered, it’s usually all impression management, but there might be a little, a little phrase that says, We’re sorry, but the but, the but those are quickly, you know, attached to statements that say the that still promote the organization in some way, that say this is, this is not like us, or something of that nature, or more commonly, I think, statements that don’t, that don’t actually admit responsibility. So they might say, We’re sorry if anyone was hurt, and that little word if is doing a lot of work there, or we’re sorry if Mistakes were made something of that nature. So surrender is the first, and then the c in that acronym stands for confess and and I think that comes after surrender, because confession is simply telling other people what you know to be wrong, but sometimes that can be be clouded by a person’s attempt to defend themselves and to remain closed off from feedback and input from others. So it might mean that you need to listen to what other people are saying, victim survivors are saying, what other experts are saying, like a, like, if a, if an organization like Grace does an independent investigation, so you, so you receive all of this information, and it’s not just something that you know to be true, but others are telling you, this is, this is what you’ve done. These are your actions that are wrong, that are abusive and harmful. So then an adequate apology is going to confess those in detail. And not in detail in the sense that it’s it’s providing like graphic detail of events, but specific in that it names accurately what the what the offense was, and cause it what it needs to be called. So that’s confession. And then the O in that score acronym stands for ownership. And this is where the person who has committed the wrong or the organization they take ownership. They say, we did this, or I did this. And and then the R stands for recognizing impact, and that takes time to to understand, to be willing to listen and and to and to take in the full weight of those actions and understand this is what this has done to others, and this is the impact that that it’s had on others. And I think a good apology is going to mirror that back to people, and is going to to name it and say, I recognize, or we recognize, the impact of our behavior. And this is then. This is that impact, and these are the losses that it’s inflicted. We want to, we want to name that and lament that. And then the E stands for empathy, or empathize and and I intentionally put this at the end, because I think sometimes we start with just saying the words I’m sorry, or some expression of sorrow, and hoping that if people hear that, then it’s going to be like a magical wand that just makes everything okay. But I think empathy is something that can be the natural byproduct of a person or an organization doing this hard work of surrendering their own defenses and their own need to protect themselves, and walking through this process of confession and taking ownership and recognizing impact that if they do that well, then the byproduct of that should be this, this, this deep, sincere empathy that that might then express itself as I am. I’m so, so very, very sorry, and those words are going to have more impact when it’s preceded by this very difficult but meaningful work. So that’s the that’s the score acronym that I developed to help people just see and be able to gage whether or not an apology they’re receiving or maybe that they need to give is one that’s really sincere and is putting in in the work. Yeah.

 

Julia  1:23:03

I mean, that acronym is incredibly helpful just for those harm to know what to look for. I think empathy is is going to pave the way for any of that real repair and reconciliation, and it’ll be the byproduct of that as well. I also think that empathy is one of one of those things that people can act there’s affective empathy, which there’s the appearance of empathy, but empathy should be consistent, and it should be attached to a feeling and a connection, and that repair process does take a long time. It should not be fast. And at the same time there, there shouldn’t be confusion about an apology or forgiveness. And I think you speak to that a lot in your book, which is so helpful that you shouldn’t leave conversations wondering or thinking that there’s still not as much understanding an effective apology and repair does feel like there’s a light shining and there’s a sense of yes, they got it, and their understanding, which helps you to stay in the process, but while you’re still looking to see and test, because I think it’s right to do that biblically, we see that with Joseph as he tests his brothers who come to him and apologize later, there’s a right testing and waiting and observing.

 

Wade Mullen  1:24:43

Yes, there is Ann. And I think in addition, you know, in addition to bringing this this clarity and this ability to make sense of what happened and what’s true, so diffusing the confusion where the fogs the fogs lifted, i. I think that also enhances this, this very important experience of safety that and that doesn’t mean that the other people who harmed you are immediately worthy of trust, but I think so often the the environment that’s characterized by abuse is characterized by deception and confusion, and then when the truth finally is acknowledged and state and stated clearly, it can restore a sense of of safety, and that then, I think, can pave some pathways toward experiences such as communal lament And forgiveness and talking about these things. And you know, but that safety needs to be there first. And so bringing the truth into the light in the form of, let’s say, an apology as a first step can can really serve the purposes of safety too, with a within a with within a community.

 

Julia  1:25:59

And if there isn’t that foundation of trust and truth, that this is what happened. This is how we harmed in specificity. And I think that you speak to this as well, that there, there’s just demonstration, yes, right, there’s, I think you, you mentioned statements, demonstration and rehabilitation, that there’s this bypassing of of truth to just to just move on and fix it and say the things that need to be said, so that we can get on with this, because you’re being too much, or this is draining our resources, or we can’t continue to sit in this forever.

 

Wade Mullen  1:26:41

Yes, and I, and I think, an indication of that cycle in in motion and where, where you can see that it’s, you know, that the destructive patterns are still in place is if the, if the leader, the, you know, the person who is abused or the organization is still intent on promoting themselves, and even after putting out, let’s say, a concession or pseudo apology, they’re now trying to demonstrate to people why they’re still worthy of a following and why they’re still worthy of being in Like their positions of power and holding on to that well it it then can just lead into this, this, this cycle again, where they’re then going to promote themselves, because it’s still about them, and rather than kind of sitting in the brokenness and and and going through this process of lament and surrendering their their need to defend themselves, the the demonstration that sometimes we see on the heels of a pseudo apology, or they’ve overcome what maybe they think they’ve overcome this threat to their power, then what that will look like sometimes are these demonstrations of, okay, now that this is behind us, here’s here, here’s our next big thing that we’re going to promote about who we are and where we’re going, and we need everybody on board and we’re moving forward and and, and it doesn’t, it bypasses the work of of healing.

 

Julia  1:28:20

Well, thank you so much. I think what we’re we’re trying to do in this season and in this episode is to help people understand, maybe what they’re facing, what they’re witnessing, what they’re experiencing, and the hope that we can do better, and must do better in the church to to embody the character of Christ and and how he cared for people, and how he fiercely defended and protected the church. And there is hope to to your story. There was a reparative process, and you are shining light into dark places, because you love the church, so I cherish your work. And I actually do have one last question, if you don’t mind, of course, yes, this is kind of a Spitfire question. I thought of it last minute, but we were talking about this a little bit in our home group on Sunday, and it came to mind like just the idea that in Martin luther’s context and his faith space and his cultural moment, Romans was so impactful for him, it sort of exposed the harm and the system and the context that he was in. I’m wondering, in our current condition of the American church, in our cultural context, is there a verse? Is there a chapter? Is there a book that you would prescribe to the American church now?

 

Wade Mullen: 1:29:59

Wade Ohh, that’s a good question. I I would say. One that comes to mind is is is Jesus Sermon on the Mount? And the whole, the whole sermon beginning with the Beatitudes. And I think it gives, he gives in that in that sermon. Or it’s like a discourse on discipleship. Some people call it. It’s just, it’s just teaching on what it means to follow, to follow Jesus. And beginning with the Beatitudes, I think give such a, such a counter vision to spaces where there is a, a domineering leadership or power that’s being misused and and and abused. I think he gives us a very, very different alternative vision to that. And he’s and he’s teaching this to his disciples. This is what it looks like to to, to walk in in, in the way of Christ and it’s a what he paints. Is a is a Kingdom way of living and one that brings abundance, as opposed to a an environment that inflicts loss and is very antithetical to the values of. Christ Kingdom. So that’s one thing, one passage that’s been been on my heart and mind, I haven’t quite written up. I don’t know that I’ve written about that passage and its application, but it’s something I’ve been thinking about lately.

Ann Maree

We’d love to see it written,

Julia

Yes. And we’re grinning because we are studying that in our Home group currently and, you know, talking about like, our identity as believers and our identity in the Kingdom of Christ and then how that’s lived out. So that’s a good counter narrative towards the the worldviews that like keep us stuck and protecting our identity, that when we’re in Christ and we’re in the Kingdom, there is a freedom that we can move forward in. That’s all I had.

Ann Maree

that was wonderful. And again, just incredible gratitude for sharing. But showing up and just being a part of this season, I think your voice is probably one of the most important to hear if we’re going to talk about spiritual abuse. You’ve done really great deep. Work so and this was just. Um, hearing it for an hour or so, one hour and a half. Wonderful. So. Thank you, thank, thank you so much for the opportunity.

Wade Mullen: 1:29:59

I’m honored to be a part of the conversation and really glad that you’re you’re doing a whole series on this topic and. That’s wonderful. So, um. I look forward to listening as I’m able to. And you have other guests that you’re going to have on, right?

Ann Maree

Yeah, we have. And sharing. We talked to Lisa Oakley.

Wade

Ohh wonderful

Ann Maree

last week, I think, and Chuck, Chuck DeGroat next week.

Wade

Ohh good.

Ann Maree

I don’t remember who else. Ohh Steve Tracy we talked to already. OK, so yeah, we’ve gotten some really good feedback, some really good information from some great voices. So yeah, yeah, great. We need more scholarly work though, too. Yeah, yeah. Keep that in mind.

Wade

Yes, I know. Yes, there there certainly needs to be more. Work done on it. And yeah, we’ve had conversations about that. And also curious as to why that maybe is a bit difficult. Umm, yeah. But thank you for this whole season that you’re you’re doing. Yeah. And it’s good to meet you both.

Ann Maree

Same bye. Bye. Thank you. Another opportunity. Yeah. And just yeah, praying for your work. Keep keep it. Absolutely.